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Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/26/2005 12:54:04 AM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline 		I've been watching you work and I am impressed by your voluminous efforts. I don't think anyone has the capacity to put out data like you do.

A Pet project of mine that I have all but given up on is a fleshing out of the Russian Order of battle. Specifically:

1. Providing an anti-ship capability with the Far East Naval Air Force and their Mine/torpedo air regiments using the IL-4t

2. Providing an anti-bombard/amphib ops capability with CD and mining units. These defenses were clearly there IRL but are clearly not in WitP.

3. Providing a realistic reinforcement of LCU's currently allocated to the far east in 1941. Realistically I think Stalin would have sent SOME LCU's, perhaps Siberians, to defend an aggressive push by the japanese into the Far East, if out of nothing else but pride. Currently the Soviets receive NONE, that is NO LCU's with Assault Value ever in the game.

I have some info on these things particularly the Mine/Torpedo Regiments and other people posted stuff on the Naval units (ML, DDs, SS, and few Capital ships) and teh CD defenses at Vladivostok, and I can bump those thread for you if you like.
But you seem to have some pretty good sources of you own...

Let me know if you are interested. I'd like to see this stuff make it into the next Version of CHS.

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Post #: 1
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/26/2005 3:16:01 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Much as I'd like to see the Soviets, I have two reservations:

- What slots are the Soviet ships, air groups and land combat units going to fit into?

- If you get them early in the war, what would be the point? Judging from the AAR's, very few Japanese players actually attack the Soviets, and by the time they auto-activate, the war will be all but over. Until then, the Soviet ships are going to be rusting gently away in Vladivostok, and the planes are going to be sitting still at their airbases.

It's just my opinion, and it doesn't have a lot of weight, but I don't see the point of making the effort.

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Post #: 2
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/26/2005 3:32:26 AM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

Posts: 1359
Joined: 2/1/2005
From: Gdansk
Status: offline 		Terminus, fact that they were there is a quite good reason to putting them into a scenario in which already were floating dry dock and declassified battleship in a role of target ship...

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Post #: 3
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/26/2005 11:45:59 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		El Cid rules, it's guys like him that give hope that CHS may one day be balanced mod with comparable number of tweaks for all sides

Go el cid go.... and please don't forget to give Zero 11th hex of range back.

O.


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Post #: 4
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/26/2005 12:15:20 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

Terminus, fact that they were there is a quite good reason to putting them into a scenario in which already were floating dry dock and declassified battleship in a role of target ship...


True enough, I suppose... As I said, just my opinion.

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Post #: 5
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/26/2005 1:12:00 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		I already have been asked to do a Russian Far East Fleet.

The problem is getting the priority for the project. Of course, after CHS is released, if they don't give me more to do, we can do what you want!


(in reply to TheElf)
Post #: 6
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/26/2005 1:38:29 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		I for one do not want CHS to go sci-fi..
I have no problem seeing units that were actually involved in the war, but the "1946" stuff is starting to bleed into the spaces used by units of "reality".
This mod was called CHS for a specific reason.
Maybe a seperate mod needs to be made, called "1946", (or whatever.)
As for that drydock, and the "battleship used as a target", well, they at least were there, and if they were used to "catch Japanese bombs", so be it.
This latter issue has been discussed several times in this forum, and nobody is apparently convinced by historical fact.
While we are on the subject, I did recently read one of our friends stating "zero flights to Henderson were common and everyday"(or similar words).
This is not correct, and if Saburo Sakai can be trusted to tell the truth, he made it clear that while it was possible, it was very taxing on their BEST pilots, and required " flying just slightly over stall speed for the entire long flight, and leaning the fuel to an extent that once at the target, there was no fuel left for combat of any consequence.
Source:SAMURAI, Saburo Sakai with Martin Caiden
Sakai further admitted that flying the plane very lean (and very slow to get there) contributed greatly to pilot fatigue, to the extent he, himself mistook a Grumman Avenger for a Wildcat, and got directly under it, allowing the Avenger belly gun to damage his plane at point blank range,causing the loss of an eye.
Anybody who has gotten that close to those 2 planes, can see that aside from a similar shape, the 2 planes are totally different in size, the Avenger being nearly twice as large!.
Sakai must have been close enough to notice the difference, (if he were not fatigued,) as the belly gun which hit him was one of those "measly" .30 cal "pop-guns" which have prevented the Oscar from getting its' deserved status in the game !
(I am not a "fanboy" of any side, just of historical correctness.)
This is not to say it did not happen, of course, (my uncle Jim brought back a piece of a Zeke brought down there), but altering the range of a plane for the duration of the use of said plane (for the entire game) is something which should not be taken lightly.
I would rather see Oleg get his way with the static "Mongolian Horde", than to see any added Soviet units whose historical duration was from A bomb 1, to VJ day.(Just the time needed to get those northern islands back.)

< Message edited by m10bob -- 12/26/2005 1:56:32 PM >

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Post #: 7
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/26/2005 3:29:06 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		I agree with whoever thinks Soviet OOB is unnecessary (or lowest possible priority for any mod). True honest wargamers do not attack SU anyway.

O.


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Post #: 8
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/26/2005 7:57:28 PM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I already have been asked to do a Russian Far East Fleet.

The problem is getting the priority for the project. Of course, after CHS is released, if they don't give me more to do, we can do what you want!




And the reason you were asked to do that is because as a member of the CHS I have been pushing for it ever since my PBEM invaded Russia in our stock game. A.B., Don, and Joe are just tired of hearing about it from me, so they are giving in.

To me the more important facet of the Russian OOB is creating a deterrent to invasion. The Far East Fleet is anything BUT a deterrent to the Combined fleet, so the focus should be on the large CD units at Vladivostok, and the inclusion of the mine/Torpedo Air Regiments of the Far East Naval air arm. A robust mining capability, which the russians had, and a turn 1 activation house rule will give the allied player time to prep his one port and all his border units to repel any potential invasion. An advantage I DID NOT have in my PBEM.

To those who think it is unnecessary, I agree to a point. On the one hand I think it wouldn't and shouldn't ever happen, in real life that is. But on the other hand, the units are there in WitP, they were there IRL, and so they might as well be accurate. This is the CHS after isn't it? And it's Game. Based in an alternative history once you run turn 1.

M10bob,
I am not advocating a robust man for man, plane for plane, ship for ship recreation of the Soviet OOB. I understand that only a small percentage of players may actually invade the Far East and take on the russians, so I am not saying we should disregard more "Primary" players in Favor of the russian OOB, but where we can fit them in, we should.



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Post #: 9
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/26/2005 10:35:34 PM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

Posts: 1359
Joined: 2/1/2005
From: Gdansk
Status: offline 		I simply want to point out that reason to include Soviet fleet is to convice Japanese player against invasion. Maybe I am wrong but fleet protected in base by fleet aviation could be hard nut to crack - unless KB is in the area. But concentrating KB far north could be fatal for operations in far south and west? Also activating 39 small 2 medium and 12 minelaying subs could be another reason why Soviets should be left alone untouched.

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Post #: 10
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/26/2005 10:45:36 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

I simply want to point out that reason to include Soviet fleet is to convice Japanese player against invasion. Maybe I am wrong but fleet protected in base by fleet aviation could be hard nut to crack - unless KB is in the area. But concentrating KB far north could be fatal for operations in far south and west? Also activating 39 small 2 medium and 12 minelaying subs could be another reason why Soviets should be left alone untouched.


I assume that KB could stop by on it's way home for refit and pull off a mini-Pearl Harbor. Just a minor detour.

(in reply to Monter_Trismegistos)
Post #: 11
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/26/2005 10:53:18 PM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

Posts: 1359
Joined: 2/1/2005
From: Gdansk
Status: offline 		Not Pearl Harbour - because as showed by Mog's Lunatic games Russia must be activated a whole turn before first attacks could came in.

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Post #: 12
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/26/2005 10:54:22 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

And the reason you were asked to do that is because as a member of the CHS I have been pushing for it ever since my PBEM invaded Russia in our stock game. A.B., Don, and Joe are just tired of hearing about it from me, so they are giving in.



Good news, problem is that the Matrix land OOB is largely uncorrect.

Russian OOB in the Far East as of 1 January 1942 (may be missing some artillery and cavalry units and rifle brigades, tank units and rifle divisions should be complete)

Transbaikal Front

Front Reserves:
94th Rifle Division
259th Howitzer Regiment

17th Army:
36th Motorized Rifle Division
57th Motorized Rifle Division
61st Tank Division
9th Armored Car Brigade (don't know what happened with this unit later)
1st Separate Motorized Rifle Rgt
3rd Separate Motorized Rifle Rgt
30th Motorcycle Battalion
82nd Separate Tank Battalion

36th Army:
111th Tank Division
209th Rifle Division (formed Oct 1941)
210th Rifle Division (formed Oct 1941)
33rd Separate Tank Battalion
35th Separate Tank Battalion

Far Eastern Front

Front Reserves:
205th Rifle Division (formed Oct 1941; moved west July 1942)

1st Red Banner Army:
2nd (Ussuriiskaya) Tank Division (formed Nov 1941; disbanded April 1942 and used to form 204th, 208th, 209th and 210th Tank Brigades)
22nd Rifle Division
39th Rifle Division
59th Rifle Division
75th Tank Brigade
77th Tank Brigade
42nd Motorized Rifle Brigade
87th Howitzer Rgt
182nd Howitzer Rgt

2nd Red Banner Army:
3rd Rifle Division
12th Rifle Division
204th Rifle Division (formed Oct 1941; moved west July 1942)
73rd Tank Brigade
74th Tank Brigade
147th Howitzer Rgt
238th Howitzer Rgt

15th Army:
1st (Amurskaya) Tank Division (formed Oct 1941; disbanded April 1942 and used to form 203rd and 209th Tank Brigades)
34th Rifle Division
145th Howitzer Rgt
202nd Para Brigade

25th Army:
40th Rifle Division
105th Rifle Division
126th Rifle Division (formed Sept 1941, moved west in May 1942)
190th Rifle Division (formed Oct 1941)
72nd Tank Brigade
76th Tank Brigade
107th Howitzer Rgt
148th Howitzer Rgt

35th Army (formed July 1941):
35th Rifle Division
66th Rifle Division
29th Motorcycle Regiment
263rd Howitzer Rgt

Sakhalin:
79th Rifle Division
101st Rifle Division

Only the units that have the time they left to the west left the theatre, all divisions and brigades remained until 1945! In 1942 lots of tank brigades were formed (mostly using BT tanks), and 1943 saw the formation of many rifle divisions...

Source: "Soviet Order of Battle World War II" by C.S. Sharp

< Message edited by Kereguelen -- 12/26/2005 10:57:59 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/27/2005 1:49:20 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I have no problem seeing units that were actually involved in the war, but the "1946" stuff is starting to bleed into the spaces used by units of "reality".


Then change the scenario. OUR scenario ends in 1946 - and it makes no sense to ignore that. If ships would have finished - if Japan is not a wreak and has resources and industry - then they would have finished - and that is not fiction.

Joe and I think the war should end by November based on USSBS - survive longer than that - you win as Japan!

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 14
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/27/2005 1:51:25 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

As for that drydock, and the "battleship used as a target", well, they at least were there, and if they were used to "catch Japanese bombs", so be it.
This latter issue has been discussed several times in this forum, and nobody is apparently convinced by historical fact.


Mr Brown is convinced. He has played with this some - and asked me to implement in detail - a Soviet Navy. So it is only a matter of time.

Now as for land... I am told there is plenty of room for Allied land.


(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 15
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/27/2005 7:33:44 AM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

And the reason you were asked to do that is because as a member of the CHS I have been pushing for it ever since my PBEM invaded Russia in our stock game. A.B., Don, and Joe are just tired of hearing about it from me, so they are giving in.



Good news, problem is that the Matrix land OOB is largely uncorrect.

Russian OOB in the Far East as of 1 January 1942 (may be missing some artillery and cavalry units and rifle brigades, tank units and rifle divisions should be complete)

Transbaikal Front

Front Reserves:
94th Rifle Division
259th Howitzer Regiment

17th Army:
36th Motorized Rifle Division
57th Motorized Rifle Division
61st Tank Division
9th Armored Car Brigade (don't know what happened with this unit later)
1st Separate Motorized Rifle Rgt
3rd Separate Motorized Rifle Rgt
30th Motorcycle Battalion
82nd Separate Tank Battalion

36th Army:
111th Tank Division
209th Rifle Division (formed Oct 1941)
210th Rifle Division (formed Oct 1941)
33rd Separate Tank Battalion
35th Separate Tank Battalion

Far Eastern Front

Front Reserves:
205th Rifle Division (formed Oct 1941; moved west July 1942)

1st Red Banner Army:
2nd (Ussuriiskaya) Tank Division (formed Nov 1941; disbanded April 1942 and used to form 204th, 208th, 209th and 210th Tank Brigades)
22nd Rifle Division
39th Rifle Division
59th Rifle Division
75th Tank Brigade
77th Tank Brigade
42nd Motorized Rifle Brigade
87th Howitzer Rgt
182nd Howitzer Rgt

2nd Red Banner Army:
3rd Rifle Division
12th Rifle Division
204th Rifle Division (formed Oct 1941; moved west July 1942)
73rd Tank Brigade
74th Tank Brigade
147th Howitzer Rgt
238th Howitzer Rgt

15th Army:
1st (Amurskaya) Tank Division (formed Oct 1941; disbanded April 1942 and used to form 203rd and 209th Tank Brigades)
34th Rifle Division
145th Howitzer Rgt
202nd Para Brigade

25th Army:
40th Rifle Division
105th Rifle Division
126th Rifle Division (formed Sept 1941, moved west in May 1942)
190th Rifle Division (formed Oct 1941)
72nd Tank Brigade
76th Tank Brigade
107th Howitzer Rgt
148th Howitzer Rgt

35th Army (formed July 1941):
35th Rifle Division
66th Rifle Division
29th Motorcycle Regiment
263rd Howitzer Rgt

Sakhalin:
79th Rifle Division
101st Rifle Division

Only the units that have the time they left to the west left the theatre, all divisions and brigades remained until 1945! In 1942 lots of tank brigades were formed (mostly using BT tanks), and 1943 saw the formation of many rifle divisions...

Source: "Soviet Order of Battle World War II" by C.S. Sharp


Kereguelen,
That stuff is awesome! Can you provide a TOE for a Soviet division on the Transbaikal front in 1941? What strength level would they be at? 50%? 60%? 100%? What about likely locations for these units in 1941? Whaer would each army be centered?

What Russia really lacks is a likely reinforcement path in a hypothetical invasion of Russia by Japan. What kind of Reserves might Stalin have called upon in 1941? The war in Russia was already underway, but if the Japanese, in an Alternate history conspired with the Germans to "Squeeze" Russia in a two front war, what nearby units might have been called on to move further east? A reinforcement schedule could be made more Robust as the tide turns against the Germans in 43' so any idea would be appreciated. I really don't see why there are NO rifle divisions in the reinforcement queue. Especially toward teh end of the war when the war in the west had been decided...

You wouldn;t happen to have any info on Mine/Torpedo regiments or a OOB for the Far East Naval Arim Arm? I'd rather see a torpedo variant of the IL-4 or a Russian A-20G than the 4 new Japanese transports El Cid is talking about adding....

What about minelayers, and subs? CobraAus posted some stuff in the two threads I just bumped today(the CHS wishlist and the Russian OOB Thread). Can you verify or dispute them?

I agree that the Russians should not be a focus of the War in the Pacific, but we have the infrastructure, so why not use it? Besides, in my PBEM playing with Russia has been fun if not accurate.

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Post #: 16
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/27/2005 7:57:19 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Can you provide a TOE for a Soviet division on the Transbaikal front in 1941? What strength level would they be at? 50%? 60%? 100%?


Probably all were at 100%. The rifle divisions existing before June 1941 certainly were. All sources state that the divisions in the Far East were kept at war footing. It seems that all rifle divisions in the theatre were converted to a December 1941 wartime (reduced) Shat (the 29th Dec Shtat) in January/February 1942, before they were under a reinforced April 1941 Shtat. Reinforced Shtat because the rifle divisions in the Far East fielded organic tank battalions (those battalions were later used to form independent tank brigades).

Interesting sidenote: It seems that the tank units in the Far East never received any KV tanks and started to equip with T-34/85 somewhen in late 1944. Most tanks were BT-7M (currently not in the database) and T-26 (at least the BT-7M's were even used in August Storm in 1945 by some formations). I think one could delete all KV and the T-34A and T-34C from the database and instead add the BT-7M (with a large pool at start and upgrade path to T-34/85).

Rifle division TOE: 243 Rifle Squads, 27 SMG Squads (only as part of TOE), 108 7.62mm HMG, 9 12.7mm AAMG, 72 50mm Mortar, 72 82mm Mortar, 18 120mm Mortar, 12 76mm Infantry Howitzer, 16 76mm Field Gun, 8 122mm Howitzer, 18 45mm ATG, 33 Engineer Squads (altogether, probably 15 Combat Eng, 18 Eng Squads) - Sidenote: I have added 50mm Mortars and 7.62mm HMG to my "personal" scenario (defined as "squads" in the database)

quote:


What about likely locations for these units in 1941? Whaer would each army be centered?


Still working on this. Likely army locations:

2nd Red Banner at Blagoveshensk, 15th Army at Khabarovsk, 35th Army at Iman, 1st Red Banner near Vladivostok (west of the city, Manchurian border; AB-map hex 65/32), 25th Army near Vladivostok (Korean border; AB-map Hex 65/32); 16th Army was formed on Sakhalin, dunno if it should be included; 17th Army was garrison force in Outer Mongolia, 36th Army probably at or near Chita.

quote:


What Russia really lacks is a likely reinforcement path in a hypothetical invasion of Russia by Japan. What kind of Reserves might Stalin have called upon in 1941? The war in Russia was already underway, but if the Japanese, in an Alternate history conspired with the Germans to "Squeeze" Russia in a two front war, what nearby units might have been called on to move further east? A reinforcement schedule could be made more Robust as the tide turns against the Germans in 43' so any idea would be appreciated. I really don't see why there are NO rifle divisions in the reinforcement queue. Especially toward teh end of the war when the war in the west had been decided...


No fictional reinforcements, but I'll post a list of rifle divisions and tank units formed later in the Far East (big bunch in 1943, most stayed).

quote:

You wouldn;t happen to have any info on Mine/Torpedo regiments or a OOB for the Far East Naval Arim Arm? I'd rather see a torpedo variant of the IL-4 or a Russian A-20G than the 4 new Japanese transports El Cid is talking about adding....

What about minelayers, and subs? CobraAus posted some stuff in the two threads I just bumped today(the CHS wishlist and the Russian OOB Thread). Can you verify or dispute them?


Sorry, but I've nothing about this.



(in reply to TheElf)
Post #: 17
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/29/2005 1:45:47 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline 		Soviet Rifle Divisions formed in the Far East/Transbaikal after PH (as requested by The Elf):

231st RD - 01/07/1943 under 1st Red Banner Army
255th RD - 06/07/1943 under 15th Army
258th RD - 28/07/1943 under 25th Army
264th RD - 20/07/1943 under 35th Army
275th RD - 15/07/1943 under 36th Army
278th RD - 15/07/1943 under 36th Army
284th RD - 15/07/1943 under 17th Army
292nd RD - 15/07/1943 under 36th Army
293rd RD - 15/07/1943 under 36th Army
298th RD - 01/07/1943 under 36th Army
300th RD - 09/08/1943 under 1st Red Banner Army
335th RD - 25/08/1944 under 1st Red Banner Army (formed from 6th Rifle Bde)
345th RD - 13/03/1945 under 2nd Red Banner Army
355th RD - 10/12/1944 under 2nd Red Banner Army
361st RD - 22/11/1944 under 15th Army

Tank Brigades formed after PH:

43rd TB - May 1942 under 17th Army
44th TB - May 1942 under 36th Army
125th TB - April 1942 under 35th Army
165th TB - May 1942 under 15th Army
171st TB - May 1942 under 35th Army
172nd TB - March 1942 under 35th Army
203rd TB - April 1942 under 15th Army
204th TB - April 1942 under 1st Red Banner Army
205th TB - April 1942 under 36th Army
206th TB - April 1942 under 36th Army (?)
208th TB - April 1942 under 1st Red Banner Army
209th TB - April 1942 under 1st Red Banner Army
210th TB - April 1942 under 1st Red Banner Army
214th TB - Dec 1942 under Far East Front (front reserve, maybe on Sakhalin?)
257th TB - April 1943 under 1st Red Banner Army
258th TB - April 1943 under 2nd Red Banner Army
259th TB - April 1943 under 25th Army

All rifle divisions and tank brigades mentioned above remained in the Far East/Transbaikal and were still in existence in August 1945. The tank brigades were formed from existing separate tank battalions with BT-7 and T-26 tanks, at least some of them still fielded BT-7 tank in 1945, the others had been upgraded to T-34/85 in 1944/45. The separate tank battalions mostly came from the tank battalions of rifle divisions (the rifle divisions in the Far East/Transbaikal had kept tank battalions after the divisions stationed in European SU had lost theirs).

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 18
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/29/2005 10:17:14 PM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline 		Great Stuff Kereguelen! Thanks! I assume TOE would be the standard RD TOE that you use with the added 50mm Mortars, and all units would be full strength? EXP around 50? What do you think?

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Post #: 19
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/30/2005 2:10:00 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Great Stuff Kereguelen! Thanks! I assume TOE would be the standard RD TOE that you use with the added 50mm Mortars, and all units would be full strength? EXP around 50? What do you think?


Hi, the TOE's I use for Soviet rifle divisions in my own (personal) CHS variant look like this. They're modelled after the Dec 29th 1941 TOE which was used by the divisions in the Far East from Jan/Feb 1942 onwards. Due to slot limits I've deleted the cavalry recon platoons. Combat engineer squads include the chemical decontamination platoon found in Soviet rifle divisions (they were even better equipped than ordinary sappers). Engineers (construction) stand for the sapper battalion which had only two companies, rifle regiments had some (combat) engineers of their own.

Currently I'm considering to give the rifle divisions that were formed pre-June 1941 their howitzer regiment back (due to slot limits). The howitzer regiments found in rifle divisions before the war (with 24 122mm and 12 152mm Howitzers) became independent between January - March 1942.


Rifle Division TOE:
243 Rifle Squads, 24 Combat Engineer Squads, (27 SMG Squads), 108 HMG, 72 50mm Mortar, 72 82mm Mortar, 18 120mm Mortar, 18 45mm ATG, 12 76mm Infantry Gun, 16 76mm Field Gun, 8 122mm Howitzer, 9 AAMG, 18 Engineer Squads, 525 Support Squads

Tank Brigade TOE:
32 BT-7M Tanks, 21 T-26M Tanks, 3 BA-6 Armoured Cars, 24 Motorized Rifle Squads, 6 HMG, 8 82mm Mortars, 4 45mm ATG, 4 37mm AA, 80 Motorized Support

This tank brigade TOE is the one that seemed the most likely variant. The tank brigades in the FE had the same general composition as their European counterparts (2 tank battalions, 1 motorized rifle battalion), but their exacte makeup is somewhat unclear because they were formed from the tank battalions of the pre-war rifle divisions (tank brigades in Europe were formed from different sources). Because of this, it's even possible that the tank battalions in the FE remained unchanged with 51 light tanks (which could mean both BT-7 or T-26) and 3 armoured cars each. The motorized rifle companies were large companies with 12 squads each but missing the 50mm mortars.

As a sidenote: Both Motorized Rifle Divisions (36th and 57th) under Transbaikal Front had different TOE's than ordinary rifle divisions and kept their "old" tank battalions (giving them 51 tanks each).

XP: Probably higher experience for divisions formed before June 1941 and for tank brigades (because the tank brigades were formed from existing tank battalions). Full strength divisions, but maybe missing the SMG squads at start.

K

(in reply to TheElf)
Post #: 20
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/30/2005 3:19:24 PM   
kellyc

 

Posts: 142
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		Don't forget some of these units most likely have combat experience from the first time around fighting the Japanese (1937? or so under Zhoukov). Might want to check which ones and maybe increase their starting experience levels?


Just a thought from a lurker...

Sincerely
Kelly

_____________________________

Plankowner USS Kauffman (FFG-59).

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 21
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/30/2005 8:07:55 PM   
Lemurs!


Posts: 788
Joined: 6/1/2004
Status: offline 		50mm mortars should not be in CHS.

Also, make sure none of the at start Russian forces are withdrawn as we have no way to simulate this in game. Trans Baikal and Martitime military districts were kept on a war footing but the central Siberia districts were not. Also, i might understrength some of the units anywat as Stalin pulled experts/specialists out of these units between November '41 and October '42.

The Russian Navy's manpower was essentially non existent in real life as the ships in peace time do not maintain full crews, and during the Great Patriotic War the navy was used as a resevoir of personnel for ground units. Pacific fleet ships were sitting at between 10-20% manpower by '43. I realize they were able to provide some manpower for their fleet in '45.

The Russian navy was also built the same as their army, and this does not work for a navy. The lack of long service crews, poor technology etc, made an extremely bad navy which we are still seeing today.

Mike

_____________________________



(in reply to kellyc)
Post #: 22
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/30/2005 8:38:27 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Also, make sure none of the at start Russian forces are withdrawn as we have no way to simulate this in game. Trans Baikal and Martitime military districts were kept on a war footing but the central Siberia districts were not. Also, i might understrength some of the units anywat as Stalin pulled experts/specialists out of these units between November '41 and October '42.



Hi,

only the divisions were this is mentioned in the OOB's I posted here moved to the west, all others stayed. At least the divisions that had been formed before June 1941 were always kept at full strength. They provided trained soldiers for the war in europe, but those men were always replaced (they basically served as training formations until August Storm; for example: 3rd Rifle Division provided over 13,000 soldiers for the west but always kept its wartime strength). The only change was that they were converted to the wartime TOE of Dec 1941 between January - March 1942 (because they were overstrength compared to combat units in the west). But this is already represented by giving them the Dec 1941 TOE. Formations in Siberia MD were not included by me because all eventually moved west and Siberia MD is off-map.

K

(in reply to Lemurs!)
Post #: 23
RE: Sick'em El Cid..... - 12/31/2005 3:03:00 AM   
Lemurs!


Posts: 788
Joined: 6/1/2004
Status: offline 		Kereguelen,

You have covered all my worries on the land OOB i see! Yikes, your research is thourough.
Were you by any chance involved in the research for G/RD's East Front/Scorched Earth ?

Mike

_____________________________



(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 24
I need Russian ship art!!! - 1/2/2006 8:41:21 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Got permission to add ships to the CHS release for Russia -
already was asked to look at it but not it seems it will happen.
Already DID look at the data - not much of a fleet - so it will
be fast, but:

there is NO art! I always assign the closest art in the system (so things won't crash when the system wants art). You want Russian art? Get me
some!

Kirov CA (early form, not much AA)
Leningrad DL (same)
Gavriil DD
Gnevnyi DD
L (Leninetz, Leninet) SS
M (Maiodki, Malyuika) SS
Shch (Shchuka) SS
Stalinetz SS
G5 MTB
Albatros DE
Dzherzhinski Coast Guard Escort
US Admirable MS in Russian colors
US SC subchasers in Russian colors

< Message edited by el cid again -- 1/2/2006 8:47:24 PM >

(in reply to TheElf)
Post #: 25
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