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Textile production - 2/26/2006 6:42:08 PM   
hondo1375


Posts: 157
Joined: 3/12/2005
From: London, UK
Status: offline 		I don't understand how textile production works. I saw one thread on it here, but it didn't really explain my situation as far as I could work out.

On one turn I was producing +41 wool (30 in stock), +16 cotton (30 in stock), +25 textiles (30 in stock). But the total of my individual provinces textile production was +47 not +25, and the +25 was highlighted in a red box. The next turn the numbers were the same except wool stock was now 51, cotton stock 12, and textile production was now +26 with 55 in stock

Between turns I didn't build anything or change any settings, and I didn't have any trade deals. Could someone explain what is going on, and in particular how can I use more of the textile production I have allocated.

Thanks.

Edit: I'm running v1.2.18

< Message edited by hondo1375 -- 2/26/2006 6:43:03 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Textile production - 3/5/2006 10:04:20 PM   
darrellb9

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		hondo1375,
As near as I can tell, since 1.2.16 the text box properties for textile production have been messed up and the Total produced by nation is not displaying the proper value. Especially noticeable at the beginning of a game when all the individual provinces productions add up to the Total for nation values (I think there's some variance for 'ramp-up' once you start making changes to individual provinces?). For example when starting as France I think if you add up the individual provinces it's 63 or 67 and when you first go into the advisor screen it shows a '-1' value for Total for nation but after clicking to move to the next province this value changes to 29, still way off. Hoping it gets fixed 'cause it bugs the crap out of me when trying to manage my own production values

(in reply to hondo1375)
Post #: 2
RE: Textile production - 3/7/2006 8:39:36 PM   
Treefrog


Posts: 702
Joined: 4/7/2004
Status: offline 		hondo,
I'm noticing the same as above. playing france 1792 at difficulty 23 with france difficulty set at -3 despite nominal province textile production of 60+, the number showing on the screen was +14 first month (nominal and actuallyproduced), +7 the second month (both nominal and actually produced) and +3 the third month (both nominal/actual).

I'm still puzzling that one out.

Everybody keep us posted with their solution and/or observations.

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"L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace."

(in reply to darrellb9)
Post #: 3
RE: Textile production - 3/9/2006 5:58:54 AM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: db99

Hoping it gets fixed 'cause it bugs the crap out of me when trying to manage my own production values {snip}



Is their anyone that doesn’t manage their own production ?. I tried a game once England ,1792, 28 years and let it roll with Advisor management.

You can imaging what my Finances/Economy was looking like by 1800, I found myself saving up to build a Calvary unit.

LMAO


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RE: Textile production - 3/9/2006 8:41:18 AM   
darrellb9

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		I tried letting the advisors handle it... once.
I couldn't even consider saving for a calvary unit...

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Post #: 5
RE: Textile production - 3/9/2006 6:05:14 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline 		Well being the economy is essential to gain victory in COG, are the shortcomings/bugs not being addressed in a patch ?

We are not talking situational bugs here, we are talking arithmetic or lack of as the thread starting subject stated.

This is easily reproduced just by playing the title.

Don’t get me wrong , I can care less for the AI trade/economy option. I find myself rarely accepting trade offers as it is, so micro managing the economy is by no means a negative from my point of view.

But that being said, short of taking down the individual production numbers for your provinces in the game present state you run a real risk of total mismanagement of your economy. This for me is a game stopping bug and ridicules .

If your going to make the economy one of the key hurtles of the game engine, as least get it to work

< Message edited by Sarge -- 3/9/2006 6:12:31 PM >

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RE: Textile production - 3/9/2006 8:23:54 PM   
darrellb9

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		There hasn't been much word of late and 1.2.18beta has been out well over a month now and I thought the implication was they were really close to releasing the official 1.2 patch at the point it came out. Hopefully the delay means they are addressing these problems before releasing it.

I could care less about AI advisors as well. I don't mind micro-managing but having to manually try to figure out what's going on is a show stopper IMO and I really haven't played the game much of late because of it.

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 7
RE: Textile production - 3/9/2006 9:24:19 PM   
Uncle_Joe


Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline 		From what I understand, what you are seeing is not 'bugs' per se, but incomplete information. For better or worse, the econ system operates under a kind of 'black box' format with many factors unseen by the player and thus the numbers given are only estimates.

This was a design decision made early on so its not likely to change at this date. I believe the feeling was that the econ system was better if the players could not micromanage every last drop of efficiency out of it (much like the historical leaders could not).

Consequently, many players who desire more complete information have not been happy with the econ system (although it is apparently more or less working as designed). FWIW, the designer has indicated that in a possible follow on project that he would strive to make the econ system more transparent and easier to follow. He mentioned that while he prefers an econ system like the current game has, he has received a lot of feedback from players and reviewers that many people prefer the other option.

For my part, I like complex systems to a degree, but I want to be able to understand the mechanics at work. To me EU2 has a fairly complex economic system, but I can see where everything derives from and that helps me make decisions as to what to do to improve it. Without that feedback to my actions, I lose a little interest in that aspect of the game...its just not worth the constant trial and error in computation IMO.

When I play CoG now, I just 'ball park' my econ and hope for the best. I know what things are supposed to help what, but I no longer concern myself with the exact numbers. I believe this is the 'intended' way to play it and after considerable effort, I've just accepted it.

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RE: Textile production - 3/9/2006 9:55:32 PM   
darrellb9

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		I realize the numbers are not exact. I believe the manual states that somewhere or I've seen that in an official matrix post here.

It's the text boxes for textile production that annoy me as the Total Produced by Nation amount is showing an erroneous value. In addition the border and background settings for the text boxes don't match all the other productions, but that's just a visual thing after all and would be no big deal if the value were correct.
They were correct in the original release and in 1.10 so it was something that was introduced in at least 1.2.16 and are still present in 1.2.18.

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Post #: 9
RE: Textile production - 3/9/2006 10:04:00 PM   
Treefrog


Posts: 702
Joined: 4/7/2004
Status: offline 		What you have all taught me is to pay more attention to the estimated increased in total economy production of an item (i.e. textiles) and pay less attention to the alleged addition to that amount by the production from a particular province.

I now observe that although the province production may nominally add 10 textiles, in fact the estimated total economy production doesn't move up even 1. Okay, we'll produce something else then. I've noticed it for timber too, and assume that phenomonen applies to all other categories, except money, labor, and food.

Although I like the "black box" design aspect of economics (I don't know that even Alan Greenspan claimed to understand the whole economy), it is very disappointing that at max difficulty with France set at -3 the most textiles you can coax is 7, despite provinces nominally producing 60+ textiles with no waste.

_____________________________

"L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace."

(in reply to hondo1375)
Post #: 10
RE: Textile production - 3/9/2006 10:14:54 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline 		I can agree with the designers decision to implementing the 'black box' format ,as it is the only realistic approach, FOW for a lack of a better term.

But !

There is no accessible info on the variables of your production numbers, sure there will be a host of variables that will effect your farmers ability to produce recourses.

“ but I want to be able to understand the mechanics at work”
As Uncle Joe stated.

Is there a list/spread sheet to the variables of production?

As I stated before , the designers made the economy one of the leading hurtles in COG, but in return implemented a fog so thick around the variables I feel completely out of control of my own economy.

The last thing I what out of COG is a lesson on accounting , but I also find myself in the games present state spending the majority of play time just trying to make heads or tails out of my finances.

IMHO the “black box” format has a adverse effect on game play. You cant design a title so reliant on shear numbers produced but leave the player in the dark on the variables.

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RE: Textile production - 3/9/2006 10:25:56 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline 		PS: why are the AI advisors even implemented in the game, its pretty obvious even to the novice player they are your worst enemy.

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RE: Textile production - 3/10/2006 7:15:04 AM   
Uncle_Joe


Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline 		Sarge:

Rest assured that many of us have voiced that exact sentiment to various degrees. And luckily, it has been heard. :) I believe an 'economic whitepaper' was in the works at one point, but I have no idea whatever became of it. That was supposed to explain the ins and outs of the econ a little more in depth. Unless it released without me seeing it, I think it kind of fell by the wayside, unfortunately.


db99:

That different border and background is not a gaff. That number is your max conversion rate IIRC. But unless you have the cotton or wool, you'll likely not get anywhere near that much. So while the other numbers are projected production, THAT number is projected MAX production which might be completely different than the actual number produced

As near as I can surmise, that number listed under Textiles is what you would get if you had a ton of consumable Cotton/Wool. At one point the conversions ration was about 4 to 1 so you'd have to have a LOT of the raw resources to get that kind of Textile output. I think the actual conversion ratio is in either one of the Raleigh guides or else in the readme for one of the patch files.

So, check and see if you have plenty of cotton and wool laying around. If you dont, then that is probably the reason for the huge divergence in values (picture large textiles mills with no wool ). If you do, then I dont really know what the problem is although I'll bet its the lack of resources.

Hope it helps!

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Post #: 13
RE: Textile production - 3/10/2006 8:02:04 AM   
darrellb9

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you Uncle_Joe.

I see now that the help bubble says 'Textile Production Capacity' as opposed to 'Resources produced in this province'. Would have been nice had they noted this interface change in the readme for the patches. The numbers just weren't working out for me and I could find nothing in the read me that indicated the textile's boxes had changed from the original version and 1.10 patch. Made the assumption they'd been monitoring other things there during testing/debugging and just hadn't put it back together correctly

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Post #: 14
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