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AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/5/2006 4:21:06 PM

Kwacker

Posts: 11
Joined: 8/4/2003
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Maybe I'm missing something, maybe someone can help me out.

I fired up a new league with all standard US League settings and played coach mode against the AI as Dallas - and against two different teams. I never finished either game as it was simply too easy to win by 40+ points by simply finding one offensive play that worked (I used a medium pass over the middle to the TE running a slant route to the center). This play seemed to complete at least 80% of the time for a first down - even if I was throwing into a cloud of DBs....

The AI did not adapt effectively. There always seemed to be a hole for the TE to run into and he was often wide open.

Is there simply no counter play in the defensive playbook or is the AI not up to the job of countering repeat plays? Maybe the completion % also needs to be tweaked down somehow?

Any thoughts appreciated - the game dosen't seem to be worth playing at this point but maybe it can be modded?

Post #: 1

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/5/2006 4:59:07 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
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Can you post the exact name of the play you are using that breaks the defense? If we know the exact play, we can take a look and see what's making it so effective. The AI does adapt generally, so this would usually be indicative of either a need for more defensive plays or a problem with how the game is handling this particular play design.

Regards,

- Erik

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(in reply to Kwacker)

Post #: 2

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/5/2006 9:12:57 PM

Kwacker

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Thanks Erik,

I ran a short test:

Quick game, everything default US settings.
Dallas (Human) v Denver (AI)
I ran the 1st drive of 4 games all starting around the Dallas 20
Each time I was able to drive the length of the field for a TD using only 1 offensive play
Formation: Splitback Set
Play: Pro Set Z Drag

Results overall were as follows:

24 completed passes
3 sacks/QB hurried & passed went short
1 penalty
1 incomplete

On the last drive my primary QB got injured. His replacement went 4-4 45 yards & a TD running the same play.

Hope that helps.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 3

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/5/2006 9:19:39 PM

Breeze

Posts: 324
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Cherry Hill, NJ, USA
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There's a run play in the indoor playbook which I've broken several long runs on. I think it's R2 MO-HB SWEEP.

Also, I had 3 kickoff returns for TDs (in a half) using Marauders's kick return play.

I think the overall lack of defensive plays is causing this. Once the playbook experts crank out some defensive plays, this should improve.

(in reply to Kwacker)

Post #: 4

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/5/2006 9:20:32 PM

Erik Rutins

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From: Vermont, USA
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Kwacker,

Thank you, we will find out why that play is working so well. Have you found any others that give similar results or is this the only "guaranteed first down"?

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 5

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/5/2006 9:52:18 PM

Dark Horse

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Wasn't there a thread that said that guys were unable to assign anyone to hold the TE man-to-man?

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Post #: 6

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/5/2006 11:28:22 PM

Kwacker

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Erik,

No I hadn't systematically tested anything else - this play was discovered on my first session with the game.

I've now run a second test though:

Same setup as above except the play is Pro Set Y Out

Results:

22-36 passes completed
4 of 5 drives went from around the 20 to a TD
2 sacks

Not quite as bad as above but obviously this play is also horribly unbalanced.

Not good - maybe we have a broader problem than 1 play the AI can't defend?

I'll test some more when I get the chance.

< Message edited by Kwacker -- 3/5/2006 11:30:16 PM >

(in reply to Dark Horse)

Post #: 7

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/5/2006 11:52:19 PM

Tullius

Posts: 1174
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From: Saxony (Germany)
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One problem i see are the ratings. WR`s have a speed rating between 95-99 (default leagues). No DB can catch up a receiver when he is behind the receiver.

(in reply to Kwacker)

Post #: 8

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 12:19:54 AM

Magnum357

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quote:

Kwacker

I don't know how Kwacker gets these "Money Plays", I can't even design a play in the PDS that will complete a simple Pass play, even if its a Dry run of the offense (no Defensive Opposition). I'm hoping the gameplay can be edited some way because I'm having little succes designing my own plays.

(in reply to Tullius)

Post #: 9

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 12:27:40 AM

Erik Rutins

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Kwacker,

Can you duplicate your results with teams other than Dallas vs. Denver? I'm seeing what you're reporting to a degree, but not quite that consistently.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 10

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 12:29:54 AM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
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Magnum,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Magnum357
I don't know how Kwacker gets these "Money Plays", I can't even design a play in the PDS that will complete a simple Pass play, even if its a Dry run of the offense (no Defensive Opposition). I'm hoping the gameplay can be edited some way because I'm having little succes designing my own plays.

When you are playing the game, can you hit F11 and report what your average frame rate seems to be during play execution? If you are too far under the minimum spec and your frame rate is abysmal, it could affect the physics. I have no idea if this is the case for you, just a hypothesis.

Regards,

- Erik

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Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Magnum357)

Post #: 11

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 12:40:05 AM

Tullius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

When you are playing the game, can you hit F11 and report what your average frame rate seems to be during play execution? If you are too far under the minimum spec and your frame rate is abysmal, it could affect the physics. I have no idea if this is the case for you, just a hypothesis.

Regards,

- Erik

I have notice this on low end systems. Even when you have a regular fps around 25 (quick game, league game) the fps in the practice mode of the PDS is only around 10-15. Then the game physics is affected.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 12

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 12:51:40 AM

Magnum357

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Ok, I did what you suggested and just to let you know that my system is suppose to be under the system spec requirements, but I have been able to play the game overall. I'm only getting about a 15 Frame Per Second count which I do know is a bit slow. I find it a bit odd that the Frame Per Second would cause the problem of how the Physics work in the game.

I thought the Physics of the game is handled with Math in the engine of the game?

I have notice a few things though with the PDS though. I notice in one of the Stock Plays that came with the game that it had a fairly good chance of completing a pass, so I decided to open up the PDS too see what it was doing compared to what my custom plays were doing. I noticed that the Stock Play had fairly simple Pass routes and the Primary Receiver Route was just a simple Straight line for about 5 yards down feild (probably why it was completing pass a lot with that play). So I desided one of my custom plays with similar Characteristics as the Stock Play. I designed the Primary Receiver to go down feild in a Straight Line for about 5 yards and tested the play. This time, it worked out much better then before and was completing the passes with much higher success. I have a theory that the Game/PDS has a very hard time understanding complicated Pass Routes. Even one of the my Custom Plays had just simple 5 yard Hitch Routes and the QB still constantly would miss his target, even if the Receiver was fairly close to him. I think David needs to be well aware of this because the PDS is sort of useless if you can't design complicated Pass routes to work with the game. And again, almost all these plays where tested "Dry Run" with no Defensive Opposition.

Another final note I would like to point out, that even the adjusted play I made (making the Pass route just go down feild in a straight line for 5 yards) that after several plays, the QB would go back to constantly missing the Intended Reciever again. If I exited the PDS Pratice Sesssion, and then go back to it with the same play though, the play would be sussessful completing pass.

I hope David is aware of this because a good PDS system with custom Designed plays is esential for Maximum Football to succeed.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 13

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 12:58:55 AM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
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Magnum,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Magnum357
Ok, I did what you suggested and just to let you know that my system is suppose to be under the system spec requirements, but I have been able to play the game overall. I'm only getting about a 15 Frame Per Second count which I do know is a bit slow. I find it a bit odd that the Frame Per Second would cause the problem of how the Physics work in the game. I thought the Physics of the game is handled with Math in the engine of the game?

It's a combination of the two, this is why the game caps FPS at 32 and we've found that the 25-32 range is ideal though based on some testing 20-32 is the extended "everything's ok range". The minimum specs on the game were set to guarantee thatit would run in that 20-32 fps range. If you are getting 15 fps and are below the minimum listed spec, that may well be the problem.

If you like, e-mail me a few pass plays that never complete for you and I'll try it here on a system that always runs in the 30-32 fps range and report back, to confirm if the frame rate is the source of the trouble. I've seen some fairly complex passes completed, so it may be that most or all of what you are seeing is a spec issue. If not, we will certainly work on finding the problem but I'd like to rule this out first.

Regards,

- Erik

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Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Magnum357)

Post #: 14

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 1:00:25 AM

Marauders

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From: Minnesota
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quote:

Play: Pro Set Z Drag

There should be plays that will stop that in the defensive playbook.

If not, they can be created.

Note that the playbooks are not fully set up as a complete defense but are a number of plays that can be. The AI has many choices, and that limits its ability to find plays that work best in game situations.

Note that some AI changes have been made during beta, and some plays change in affectiveness a bit from build to build, so plays that worked well even a few builds prior will need a few tweaks later on.

(in reply to Kwacker)

Post #: 15

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 1:15:47 AM

Magnum357

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Erik, I would be happy to send you a few of my created plays, but I'm having trouble trying to find where my created plays exactly are. I can't seem to find them in the "Plays" directory folder of the game. Can they be sent with just the Playbook, or do I need to send both the Playbook and Plays together in order to work?

(in reply to Marauders)

Post #: 16

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 1:20:32 AM

Tullius

Posts: 1174
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From: Saxony (Germany)
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Make a new playbook and copy the plays in it. Then export the playbook and send the exported playbook.

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Post #: 17

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 2:01:22 AM

Magnum357

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Erik, with the help of Tullius, I was able to get the Plays into the Exported files, but I need an E-mail address to send them to you.

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Post #: 18

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 2:03:12 AM

Erik Rutins

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Please e-mail them to erikr@matrixgames.com and tell me which ones to run against which defenses, preferably, to try to match your results. Thanks.

Regards,

- Erik

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 19

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 7:07:27 AM

Marauders

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From: Minnesota
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quote:

There's a run play in the indoor playbook which I've broken several long runs on. I think it's R2 MO-HB SWEEP.

This was a nasty play, and the new 31 defenses were set up to combat it. In my own game, I tweaked the plays in the game to better handle the sweeps, but I needed to test them, so they did not make the release.

quote:

Also, I had 3 kickoff returns for TDs (in a half) using Marauders's kick return play.

I didn't get a chance to test that enough, and I did not set up a counter play to it. Usually, I do not like to have any special teams plays in the game that do not have counter plays. I feel it is unfair. In that case, the regular return play had the returner get dumped on the one yard line. That caused too many first or second play safeties.

That is the reason the game didn't have fake kicks and punt type plays on release. Beta member have created those plays, but the plays were not tested enough to put into the release.

Maybe I should get the tweaked plays and the kick off play cleaned up. If I could figure out how to make the kicker not kick a straight long kick in coaching mode, it would be really helpful.

(in reply to Breeze)

Post #: 20

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 9:06:30 AM

Kwacker

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OK, a little more testing, all with the Pro Set Z Drag and setup as above but varying teams:

Dallas v Denver
3 drives all for a TD
18-22 completions (2 penalties, 2 incomplete passes)

Houston v LA
2 drives both for a TD
10-11 comp

Miami v Milwaukee
2 drives both for a TD
14-16 comp

NY v Oakland
2 drives both for a TD
11-11 comp

Seems the issue is more systematic rather than personnel related.

One thing I did notice was that I attempted 1 drive in the rain and this only gave 1 completion and a turnover on downs. I didn't test this again but maybe the slower speed of the reciever disrupted the play?

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RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 9:42:54 AM

Magnum357

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Ok, we get the idea. LOL. In Football Pro, this could be considered what we call an "AI Buster" Play. The only way around that is with certain Play Design restrictions to allow the Defense to defend against it better.

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Post #: 22

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 10:04:09 AM

Kwacker

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Excuse me for answering Erik's question. Just trying to help out.

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RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 10:20:23 AM

Magnum357

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No problem, I wasn't making fun of you. I think its good that you are keeping an eye on this as it is a problem.

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Post #: 24

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 12:27:07 PM

Old Coach

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From: Shepherdsville, Kentucky
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Erik,
Last night, I emailed the Fun and Gun playbook with plays I tweaked and some added plays. In PDS and gameplay, I haven't had that kind of production from Pro Set Z Drag. Usually, what I have with that play is a completion on the first attempt and them overthrows (QB leading the TE too far) or sacks on subsequent attempts. And then I'll try again say middle of the next quarter and then I'll get a completion. The route-redesigned version- is designed to be run about 12 yards down field. My frame rate stays constant in the 30 FPS range unless I forget and still my MSN browser running in the background.

Old Coach

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RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/6/2006 3:55:27 PM

Kwacker

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In case it matters my frame rate is pretty constant at 25-26 fps.

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Post #: 26

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/16/2006 7:09:38 AM

Kwacker

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Bump.

Anyone got any ideas on resolving this? - I just tried the latest patch with maybe a minor improvement (some fumbles and interceptions) but I can still drive the length of the field at will with 1 offensive play....

This is a game killer for me. Desperately hoping for a solution.

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Post #: 27

RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/16/2006 7:39:45 AM

David Winter

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From: Vancouver, BC
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I'm working on many improvements to the PDS but they're not going to be completed short term. They're large changes that are quite involved. I would almost call this PDS 2.0 after I'm done.

As for the play in question, what I find interesting is that with that particular play, I generally get sacked because my RB's come up to provide blocking support and get tangled up with the QB. The QB can't drop back properly and is easy picken's for the DL.

The other strange point about this is that after that many consecutive passes to the same receiver, that receiver should be too tired to actually catch the ball and run his route properly (this is the result of the tackles, not the catching). Every time a player is tackled they're fatigued quickly. So several tackles against the same player will wear him out to the point he can't properly do his job.

The best interm solution I can suggest at the moment is to visit the members area and download additional defensive plays (I believe Marauders has made a couple of new playbooks). There are likely to be defensive plays in those collections that can deal with this.

In regards to the frame rates, 32 is the cap. Anything over 24 will work pretty well. 15 FPS (or lower) like Magnum is getting will introduce a lot of problems. Yes, there is math to try to keep the physics in check but even that starts to break down at those rates. The intervals between movements is too much. Even the animations of the players starts to break down and keyframes get missed. At the very least it all looks pretty choppy on the screen.

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RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/16/2006 8:51:45 AM

Deft

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That's great news! We'll be waiting.

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RE: AI easily beat with simple repeat plays... - 3/16/2006 10:36:57 AM

Magnum357

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Ya, my Frame Rate is probably one of the lowest on this board, but I really haven't run into too many problems with it yet (a few bugs that I have already mentioned) and most of the problems I run into are found already by other testers. On the other hand, I have mostly been testing with the US Rules model with hardly any modifications in rules or Database files. I would like too experiment with 8-man play, but I really want to focus on US Rules so they are Rock Solid.

< Message edited by Magnum357 -- 3/16/2006 10:37:38 AM >

(in reply to Deft)

Post #: 30

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