So, I recently started a german long campaign, and have AT gun questions.

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So, I recently started a german long campaign, and have... - 5/9/2006 10:01:06 PM

Jh316

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From: Statseboro, Georgia USA
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I just hit May of 1941, and I have two choices. The 50mm Pak, or the 75mm RCL. I'm wondering, what role does the RCL play? It's far less accurate, has much less ammunition, smaller crew size, same weapon size, much less penetration, same movement speed, and costs more. The 5cm's AP round has better penetration and longer range than the 75mm HEAT round. I guess the different penetration model the HEAT round uses could be an advantage, but not one worth 30+mm of penetration at some ranges. And then the 5cm has those APCR rounds that gives it nearly 100mm more penetration at point-blank range. I guess maybe since it's 75mm it has a better effect on infantry with the few HE rounds it has, but I have the Mk IV's for that.

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RE: So, I recently started a german long campaign, and ... - 5/9/2006 10:49:12 PM

KG Erwin

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This is one of the greatest weaknesses of the Germans' infantry --poor AT defense. This is why they had to rely on their armor to save their butts on so many occasions.

I frankly don't know what to tell you, other than investing in a couple of towed 88s. They are expensive, and you gotta closely protect them, but against the Russians, you gotta take measures to reduce the flood of armor they will throw against you.

Later on, IF you're using airpower, a couple of support tank-killing aircraft will be useful.

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RE: So, I recently started a german long campaign, and ... - 5/9/2006 10:57:20 PM

Jh316

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

This is one of the greatest weaknesses of the Germans' infantry --poor AT defense. This is why they had to rely on their armor to save their butts on so many occasions.

I frankly don't know what to tell you, other than investing in a couple of towed 88s. They are expensive, and you gotta closely protect them, but against the Russians, you gotta take measures to reduce the flood of armor they will throw against you.

I understand that, but I know that infantry did use AT guns, so I'm wondering why they would use the RCL over the 5cm PaK (Though I have heard that no more than 1/10th their AT guns were the 5cm and were instead the 3.7, which the RCL is vastly superior to).

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RE: So, I recently started a german long campaign, and ... - 5/9/2006 11:09:00 PM

KG Erwin

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If you wanna stay historical, opt for the 50mm PaK. Better range than the RCL.

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RE: So, I recently started a german long campaign, and ... - 5/10/2006 12:15:05 AM

Gunter_Viezenz

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A larger sized round has better HE capability but not necesarially better aroum penetration.

For example the Panther 75mm gun had a better armour penetration that the Tiger;s 88mm gun, but the 88 had superior HE capability.

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RE: So, I recently started a german long campaign, and ... - 5/10/2006 12:32:05 AM

Jh316

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunter_Viezenz

A larger sized round has better HE capability but not necesarially better aroum penetration.

For example the Panther 75mm gun had a better armour penetration that the Tiger;s 88mm gun, but the 88 had superior HE capability.

I'm not sure how that's relevant. I'm not comparing two cannons, I'm comparing a cannon and a more expensive HEAT-firing recoiless rifle with poorer performance. I was asking about what the RCL's role is when it's inferior in every way and more expensive.

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RE: So, I recently started a german long campaign, and ... - 5/10/2006 2:53:51 AM

KG Erwin

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You guys are too hung up on technological advantages -- what it comes down to is superior tactics and using WHAT YOU HAVE. It's the 1940s, so superior comunications and control can outweigh technological inferiority.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 5/10/2006 2:55:38 AM >

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RE: So, I recently started a german long campaign, and ... - 5/10/2006 4:01:55 AM

azraelck

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that's the easy answer. Good tactics can easily take the inferior 75mm RCL to new heights. But that's not the answer to the question.

This is one of those things that are including for the sake of including it. As said, the 50mm is not only superior, as well as cheaper, but it was used more often. But, it can be just as fun to take the inferior equipement and see what you can make of it. It's included for historical accuracy; it existed and was used in some way or another. You can use it just to have fun with it, or not if you want to. It's just a nice, unneccesary addition that helps SPWaW gain it's rich diversity.

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RE: So, I recently started a german long campaign, and ... - 5/10/2006 7:22:35 AM

264rifle

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Historicaly the 75mm recoilless was used by the German paratroops and maybe some mountain units. It was an infatry support gun first and an anti-tank gun second.

Some things the game may not show is that next to no recoilless gun stayed hidden after the first shot. Also I don't know what the accuracy ratings are in the game at the moment but the recoilless guns muzzle velocity was low enough that shooting at tanks and getting a first round hit should be a fairly close range deal.

The 50mm atg was too big and heavy to parachute.

< Message edited by 264rifle -- 5/10/2006 7:24:09 AM >

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RE: So, I recently started a german long campaign, and ... - 5/10/2006 8:25:50 AM

Jh316

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 264rifle

Historicaly the 75mm recoilless was used by the German paratroops and maybe some mountain units. It was an infatry support gun first and an anti-tank gun second.

Some things the game may not show is that next to no recoilless gun stayed hidden after the first shot. Also I don't know what the accuracy ratings are in the game at the moment but the recoilless guns muzzle velocity was low enough that shooting at tanks and getting a first round hit should be a fairly close range deal.

The 50mm atg was too big and heavy to parachute.

Then maybe it should be moved out of the anti-tank gun category? The in-game accuracy ratings are an FC of 1 and RF of 2.

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RE: So, I recently started a german long campaign, and ... - 5/10/2006 4:31:26 PM

FlashfyreSP

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The 7.5cm LG40 had a muzzle velocity of 350 mps/1148 fps, which is similar to other 7.5cm artillery pieces using Charge 1 or Charge 2 . More than capable of AT performance at ranges out to 20+ hexes (1000 meters).

The 7.5cm LG40 was originally designed to give the Fallschirmjaeger troops a heavy-shell field piece that could be parachuted in. The weapon broke down into four parts; it was also adapted to mule packs for mountain troops. The LG40 fired both HE and HEAT shells, the same ones as used by the 7.5cm Gebirgsgeschutz 36 mountain gun.

In the upcoming Enhanced SPWAW Mod, this weapon will only cost 16 points, a third the cost of the 50mm AT Gun.

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RE: So, I recently started a german long campaign, and ... - 5/10/2006 7:55:12 PM

264rifle

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Flash, the time of flight to 20 hexes would be 3 seconds or more. aproaching double the time of flight for a French 75 which I grant you did not used zoned charges. From a generic formula in "tanks of the world" by F.M.von Senger und Etterlin, R_max=MV=10% the 'flat trajectory range' in which no tangent elevation need be applied to the gun. This seems to be a rough rule of thumb formula that disregards (or assumes a standard) target size, and also disregards projectile type and/or sectional density/ballistic coefficient.

given that the figures for modern short/long french 90mm armoured car guns usually give a useful combat range of around 800-1000meters (16-20 hexes?) with a Muzzle velocities of 750-950 meters a second there maybe enough to it to use as a rough and ready guide

Game was not designed for recoillless guns

With a back blast 3-4 times the muzzleblast not only can they not be used from bunkers, buildings etc but even in the open or woods they tend to "decamouflage" themselves with the first shot. That was one reason that most of the 1950's applications had them mounted on a vehicle. Shoot and scoot before every gun on the battlefield opened up on them. With a slower rate of fire than a regular gun they had better make the first shot count because they might not get another vrs tanks. I am not going to suggest how this might be modelled in the game. Maybe it can't be and we will just have to live with it although the much lower point cost is a welcome change.

< Message edited by 264rifle -- 5/10/2006 7:56:35 PM >

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RE: So, I recently started a german long campaign, and ... - 5/14/2006 12:27:11 AM

Major Destruction

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 264rifle

Flash, the time of flight to 20 hexes would be 3 seconds or more.

Game was not designed for recoillless guns

Indeed. The recoilless gun is very inaccurate because of the very low muzzle velocity and the resulting looping trajectory. With a high velocity weapon, miscalculation of range by 100 yards will not matter as the projectile will still hit the tank somewhere.

Also, the low velocity weapon makes hiting a moving target very iffy.

IMO the low cost of the RCL in the Enhanced version will only serve to encourage players to use them in large numbers. This is unhistorical as RCL's were not used in large numbers by any nation. According to Hogg, the Soviets used one in the winter war but it was apparently of little value and was not used after that. The Germans used them in Crete and the Americans used them at the end of the war in Essen but although they were well received, had insufficient amounts of ammunition.

Again in my opinion the RCL should be relegated to the Czeck OOB as a "rarely used and non-standard" unit.
The game does not recognise the inherent traits of the RCL and treats them as an anti-tank gun.

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Post #: 13

RE: So, I recently started a german long campaign, and ... - 5/14/2006 3:03:51 AM

Alby

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It has a ratiy code of 2, so if players use the rarity feature, it most likely be unavaialble most often, I never have any luck using the thing, innaccurate and HEAT pen of only 65.
If players want to buy a bunch of these then they are doomed.