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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Operation Goodwood

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Operation Goodwood - 4/16/2011 8:38:27 AM

sPzAbt653

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July 18, 1944 - Dempsey's 2nd Army attack to break the deadlock at Caen.

The Canadians (green) will move thru Columbelles and protect the west flank of the attack while the British 3rd Infantry Division and 27th Armoured Brigade (red) move to protect the east flank. In the center, the VIII Corp (brown) containing three Armoured Divisions will punch thru the German line and head south to Bourguebus, Vimont and beyond.

The scenario can be dl'd from http://www.dizium.net/TOAW

Edit: Solitaire scenario, the player controls the 2nd Army attack, the computer controls the German defense.

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< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 9/12/2012 11:43:34 PM >

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RE: Operation Goodwood - 4/16/2011 8:45:12 AM

sPzAbt653

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There are a lot of corp and divisional artillery units in this scenario. They are quite a bit to manage. They are generally arranged in groups of three units, and I find that putting one out of three on Tactical Reserve each turn allows them to be rotated each turn and therefore kept in relatively good shape while providing continuos support to combats. The player can always opt to assign them to direct support missions. Some units start in garrison mode and are released on turns 2 and 3.

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RE: Operation Goodwood - 4/16/2011 8:53:50 AM

sPzAbt653

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The British had a few ships support the attack with long range fire. They are located at Lion sur Mer and are represented by coastal artillery icons. They withdraw permanently on night of the 19th.

The only air units in the scenario are located in the upper left corner of the map. At start the Spitfires are set to Air Superiority, some Typhoons are set to Combat Support, and other Typhoons are set to Interdiction. The player can leave then like that for the duration of the scenario and not have to worry with managing them, or can assign them specific missions if that is desired.

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RE: Operation Spring - 4/16/2011 9:01:27 AM

sPzAbt653

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There is one Theater Option in the scenario, that for Operation Spring. Historically, Goodwood failed and was called off on the 21st. Demspey then reorganised the front and ordered the Canadian Infantry divisions to attack and clear the way for two British armoured divisions to penetrate to Falaise. This attack also failed.

In the scenario, the Spring TO appears on turn 4 and remains until turn 22. When chosen, a ceasefire will go into affect for nine turns, allowing the player to rest and reorganise. Some units will be permanently withdrawn while some new ones will arrive. The turn 4 appearance of the TO is much earlier than Spring occurred historically. This allows the player a good amount of flexibility. (Dempsey said he knew that Goodwood was a failure by evening of the first day).

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RE: Operation Spring - 4/16/2011 2:55:39 PM

Jeff Norton

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Very nice - Liked Goodwood since Panzer Leader days... Ellicott City, Huh? I live in Harford Co. Small world...

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RE: Operation Spring - 4/16/2011 3:32:27 PM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

Liked Goodwood since Panzer Leader days

I set up the board and stared at it for a couple days while I was working on this. What a geek I am !

There was another I liked called Battlegroup (1985) for the old commodore One of the scenarios was the British tanks running up against 1SS Panzers on the ridge. A handful of IV's and Panthers with a few Tigers against waves of Cromwell's and Shermans. Quite a turkey shoot! Still have the game but the old 64 crapped out and hit the dumpster years ago.

E.C. is where the office is, I'm in Crofton. 'Oberst Klink' is coming here from overseas in May, we were going to try and get together. We plan on posting when the time is right if you or any others are interested.

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RE: Operation Spring - 4/16/2011 3:52:14 PM

Telumar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I set up the board and stared at it for a couple days while I was working on this. What a geek I am !

+1 for this!!

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RE: Operation Spring - 4/16/2011 4:00:58 PM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I set up the board and stared at it for a couple days while I was working on this. What a geek I am !

+1 for this!!

I have this goofy idea to mount the old boardgames on magnetic plates, then put little magnets on the counters so they will stick to it. Then I can frame the boards, hang them on the wall, and stick all the counters to them. Works of Art ! I have yet to find any magnetic plates that will do the trick though.

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RE: Operation Spring - 4/16/2011 9:37:26 PM

1_Lzard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
I have this goofy idea to mount the old boardgames on magnetic plates, then put little magnets on the counters so they will stick to it. Then I can frame the boards, hang them on the wall, and stick all the counters to them. Works of Art ! I have yet to find any magnetic plates that will do the trick though.

I remember this from the 'OLD' days: we used simple 'steel' sheets w/ some sort of magnetic tape (can't remember what at the moment), but one could probably find it if one looks in the board gamers shops. I'm sure it's still there, eh? The problem with this is it's not a good solution to double-sided counters, requiring as it does the mounting on the tape with glue.

As I remember, there used to be an outfit that made magnetic 'holders' that one fitted the counters into, which made it all good (up to about 5-6 counters, at which point the stacks tended to be easy to knock over) but someone might have made better ones by now. Check 'em out for 'verticle mounting'.....

Just one of the things that being old gives you, LOL! Paper map sheets! Who'd have thought, eh?

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RE: Operation Spring - 4/16/2011 10:38:27 PM

Jeff Norton

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I've actually thought of taking some of the old game box lids, and framing them, to put in the man-cave. Now, to get it past the Minister of Finance (aka - wife).

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RE: Operation Spring - 4/17/2011 2:15:32 AM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

Paper map sheets!

Yes ! I actually took a map section into the local craft shop to ask the brilliant females there how they would do it, and they immediately said that the thick stock backing would prevent it. Paper map sheets are needed.

quote:

Now, to get it past the Minister of Finance (aka - wife).

Yes, Mrs. sPzAbt doesn't even want them taking up room in the closet ! This idea is going to cost me a hefty gift card to the shoe shop.

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RE: Operation Spring - 4/17/2011 2:35:48 AM

1_Lzard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

Paper map sheets!

Yes ! I actually took a map section into the local craft shop to ask the brilliant females there how they would do it, and they immediately said that the thick stock backing would prevent it. Paper map sheets are needed.

quote:

Now, to get it past the Minister of Finance (aka - wife).

Yes, Mrs. sPzAbt doesn't even want them taking up room in the closet ! This idea is going to cost me a hefty gift card to the shoe shop.

Avalon Hill, eh? Yeah, this is REALLY going to cost you! I suppose that just using some 'party tac' is out of the question?

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RE: Operation Spring - 4/17/2011 3:36:01 AM

sPzAbt653

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What's a party tac ??

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RE: Operation Spring - 4/17/2011 4:08:53 AM

1_Lzard

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That grey goo used to put up posters, etc........

The problem is that it will 'soil' the surface after a while. Read oily patches, LOL!

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RE: Operation Spring - 4/17/2011 1:27:16 PM

Jeff Norton

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Picture frames - no oil stains. Problem solved...

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RE: Operation Spring - 4/20/2011 8:51:27 PM

sapper32

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Realy like the look of this scenario Steve so ive downloaded it and im going to give it a go,I think there are going to be a lot of burning AFVs in the coming days.

Ian

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RE: Operation Spring - 4/20/2011 9:41:22 PM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

... think there are going to be a lot of burning AFVs in the coming days.

The different sources reported very different total numbers of German guns in the area. I leaned toward the conservative numbers but was worried that I might not have enough anti-tank power on the German side to cause the number of tank losses that the Brits took, but I was wrong. After 3-4 days I was getting very historical numbers (400-500 brewed up tanks or more).

Although von Luck gets much of the credit for the defense in the area (and he deserves it), its well worth mentioning that Rommel had a big hand in the area also. Both men had faced the British in Africa, and von Luck had faced the Soviet massed tank attacks on the east front.

In defense of the British, their intel on the area was very incomplete, and the initial bombardment fell very short of the intended effect of eliminating all resistance. On the other hand, they also had poor infantry/tank cooperation, even at this point in the war, which is difficult to reconcile.

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RE: Operation Spring - 4/22/2011 8:30:26 PM

sapper32

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

... think there are going to be a lot of burning AFVs in the coming days.

In defense of the British, their intel on the area was very incomplete, and the initial bombardment fell very short of the intended effect of eliminating all resistance. On the other hand, they also had poor infantry/tank cooperation, even at this point in the war, which is difficult to reconcile.

Yes i agree it took us Brits a long time to learn the lessons taught to us through WWII,The Americans seemed to learn there lessons a good deal faster however the bottle necks over the bridge didnt help along with the poor design of the tanks didnt they call the sherman the tommy cooker,I once read a book charting 7th Armd Divisions WWII history,when the division was withdrawn from Italy to train and requip for D Day they lost there churchill's and where given cromwells a much lighter cruiser tank not great for the terrain of normandy.

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RE: Operation Spring - 4/22/2011 11:25:51 PM

sPzAbt653

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Yes, they did call the M4 the 'Tommy Cooker'. The Cromwell was fast and had a nice 75mm gun, but only 76mm front armor, so the German 75's and 88's could brew them up at quite a distance.

An interesting note if you are playing the scenario - the Germans had a number of Pz IV's and Tigers around Sannerville and Banneville (25,14 and 25,15). After the Cromwell's and M4's crossed the Caen-Troarn road, those German tanks were ordered to attack into their flank. Shortly after moving out, the first two Tigers were quickly knocked out and the Germans halted and reversed, thinking that the Tommy's had a new secret weapon. Reports made after the battle concluded that it was those 4 88's at Cagny that most likely mistook the German tanks for British ones and engaged them. So, as bad as it was for the British, it was almost much worse.

Cromwells in Goodwood :

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RE: Operation Goodwood - 4/27/2011 1:02:38 AM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

The British had a few ships support the attack with long range fire. They are located at Lion sur Mer and are represented by coastal artillery icons. They withdraw permanently on night of the 19th.

Ships supported Operation Goodwood? Wouldn't that be about 20km inland?

I've been informed that ships never supported more than 5km inland.

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RE: Operation Goodwood - 4/27/2011 6:35:58 AM

sPzAbt653

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Force D - HMS Roberts, Mauritius and Enterprise. It seems they may have been used to shell the German coastal guns within range of the Goodwood area, as reported in the Wiki article. Perry Moore's book lumps them in with the Corp artillery that shelled 'all known German batteries within range'.

Rather then have the ships in the scenario, I opted to represent them with coast artillery, which gives them less flexibility than the naval icons. They also withdraw at the end of the second day.

I wasn't aware of the 5km thing. It may be more accurate to place the ships on the sea in an area where they can only reach the German coastal batteries.

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RE: Operation Goodwood - 4/28/2011 2:59:42 AM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Force D - HMS Roberts, Mauritius and Enterprise. It seems they may have been used to shell the German coastal guns within range of the Goodwood area, as reported in the Wiki article. Perry Moore's book lumps them in with the Corp artillery that shelled 'all known German batteries within range'.

Rather then have the ships in the scenario, I opted to represent them with coast artillery, which gives them less flexibility than the naval icons. They also withdraw at the end of the second day.

I wasn't aware of the 5km thing. It may be more accurate to place the ships on the sea in an area where they can only reach the German coastal batteries.

I neglected to say what credibility I gave to the 5km thing. I thought you had a counterexample, but perhaps not.

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RE: Operation Goodwood - 1/6/2014 12:11:49 PM

sPzAbt653

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Bumped up as there is a current AAR going on.

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RE: Operation Spring - 1/11/2014 3:03:16 PM

solops

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quote:

Yes i agree it took us Brits a long time to learn the lessons taught to us through WWII,The Americans seemed to learn there lessons a good deal faster however the bottle necks over the bridge didnt help along with the poor design of the tanks didnt they call the sherman the tommy cooker, I once read a book charting 7th Armd Divisions WWII history, when the division was withdrawn from Italy to train and requip for D Day they lost there churchill's and where given cromwells a much lighter cruiser tank not great for the terrain of normandy.

Somewhere in "The Gothic Line" Shermans are referred to as "cigarette lighters." Gasoline goes boom a lot better than diesel. Hats off to anyone who works in a gasoline powered AFV.

< Message edited by solops -- 1/11/2014 4:03:49 PM >

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RE: Operation Spring - 1/11/2014 4:18:10 PM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

Somewhere in "The Gothic Line" Shermans are referred to as "cigarette lighters."

Yes, also sometimes called Ronsons, a popular lighter of the time. There is an arguement against this 'myth' here :

http://www.weaponsofwwii.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=41

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RE: Operation Spring - 1/11/2014 6:17:46 PM

Lobster

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Having known a WW2 tanker I would have to disagree with the terms, Zippo or Ronson, used in reference to a Sherman's flammability. Those are terms used for Shermans equipped with flamethrowers, each term depending on who you were talking to but interchangeable. He also was puzzled about why any anti tank crew would try and target the engine compartment and risk leaving the tank combat capable? You target the crew compartment and kill the crew. Maybe blow up the ammo too unless it's one of the wet storage versions. Seems to me a whole lot of anecdotal evidence and not much solid evidence concerning Sherman's vulnerability due to some of them using gasoline.

Another thing, if Sherman's were such horrible tanks why did entire Soviet mechanized corps turn in T34-85s for Sherman's? They didn't have to. Commonwealth Fireflys could easily knock out the best German tanks frontally. Also, about 8k A2 had diesel engines. If the gas engines were such a handicap why weren't all Sherman's powered by diesels?

I'm also very amused when someone compares a Tiger I, a heavy tank, to a Sherman, a medium tank.

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RE: Operation Spring - 1/16/2014 9:13:51 PM

Alpha77

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It is amusing in all the so called documentaries, when they state how much better Panther & Tiger were. While Panther might be true even as these had some numbers produced. For Tigers this is a popular myth, of course Tiger had much better armor and gun, but a) they were slow and unreliable - the engine was too weak for the heavy weight and b) there werent much Tigers anyway and most were in the east. So the Western army specialists claim how the poor Shermans had too endure terrible terror by Tigers. BUT..........there werent much Tigers that opposed the Western allies at all.

There is a myth (but its probably true) that any Sherman tanker claims he fought Tigers or if his tank was damaged/destroyed ofc it was the mighty Tiger. Probably it was a standard PZ IVH or J modell in reality. It is the same with the Battle of Britain. Every German pilot claimed he was shot down by the good Spitfire - but there werent that much of them.

Probably the warhorse Hurricane also shot down a sizeable number, but the German better claim it was the mighty spit. Same the Sherman tanker claims he fights the allmighty Tiger (which was a PZ IV in reality), which were few in number and not as good as they are made in the media. Panther on the other hand was better when the early problem were solved - due to Hitler wanting them in battle without proper testing.....

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