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Get Off the Beach - 6/26/2006 11:12:29 PM   
PaladinSix

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 1/7/2006
Status: offline 		For starters, let me point out that I am relatively new to the TOAW engine and I'm still adjusting to some of its'......quirks, to put it respectfully.

I've run through the intro/tutorial scenarios, with mixed success. The Americans took my kimchee away and beat me with it in Korea '50-'51; I managed to fight the PO to a series of draws in Anonymous Heroics, and bled myself white hammering at the German fortifications around Tannenberg. However, then I switched sides (got tired of losing) and managed to trap and destroy the bulk of two Russian armies.

So, I'm no expert, but I think I've figured out the basics. With that in mind, I got ambitious and decided to try something bigger. I loaded up the D-Day scenario that begins with the Normandy landings and tried my hand as the allies.

After I got used to seeing a LOT more units than I had in the past, including some serious air power and two naval task forces, I made some opening moves and promptly got slaughtered on the beaches.

I figured I must have done something wrong, so I loaded it up and tried again essentially the same result. Only in one hex did I manage a foothold and that was pushed back into the surf on the same turn. A third try resulted in more or less identical results, so I decided to try a new approach.

First, I bombed, strafed and shelled every unit in a target hex directly, as my first round of combat, rather than lead off with the assault troops. If anything, that was worse. Then I tried leaving all of my support units (naval and air) in reserve, instead of dedicated to a particular attack, so that they would support each attack in range (at half-strength). This worked only marginally better. It seemed that whatever I try, the best I can manage is a weak foothold, nearly impossible to exploit.

Rather than assume that the scenario and/or game is flawed, I figure I must be doing something wrong. The possibilities/questions that occur to me are:

1) Naval gunfire: leave in "tactical reserve" or dedicate to a specific attack?
2) Air support: same as above.
3) Assault troops: attack with everything from one hex to another (i.e. an entire division), density penalties be damned, or try to attack with smaller groups in succession?
4) Assault troops 2: use something other than infantry/armor in the initial assault? perhaps engineers have some hidden trait which I'm missing?

Any advice or clues would be appreciated, regarding seaborne assaults in general, and D-Day in particular.

PaladinSix
Post #: 1
RE: Get Off the Beach - 6/26/2006 11:40:01 PM   
golden delicious


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From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaladinSix

1) Naval gunfire: leave in "tactical reserve" or dedicate to a specific attack?
2) Air support: same as above.


Assign them directly. Don't bother with pure bombardment, only do so in support of an attack. Check co-operation levels.

quote:

3) Assault troops: attack with everything from one hex to another (i.e. an entire division), density penalties be damned, or try to attack with smaller groups in succession?


Concentrate, but not too much. Density penalties only count if you've got all those troops actually attacking from one hex, and you can go up to yellow density and the penalty is still pretty mild.

quote:

4) Assault troops 2: use something other than infantry/armor in the initial assault? perhaps engineers have some hidden trait which I'm missing?


Not particularly. You might as well throw them in if you need the units.

Use ignore losses for amphibious assaults- if you're not getting ashore this is probably the problem. What is the name of the scenario you're playing?

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 6/26/2006 11:42:32 PM >

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to PaladinSix)
Post #: 2
RE: Get Off the Beach - 6/27/2006 1:28:39 AM   
PaladinSix

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 1/7/2006
Status: offline 		The name of the exact scenario escapes me at the moment (I'm at work), but its something like D-Day; France 1944. Its the longer of the two D-Day scenarios in the TOAW III directory.

As far as the density is concerned, the 4th, 29th and 1st IDs (US) start pretty much stacked up in one hex, which means they are all on "red" density warnings. I'm willing to take the extra casualties that will cause, as long as I can hold at least a few beachheads through the first turn. I believe the same is true for the Brits and Canadians in the Gold/Juno/Sword sector.

I think where I'm getting screwed up is in the cooperation levels. At first, I seem to have way more fire support than I could reasonably need, but as soon as I start to assign them, the limited cooperation between some of the naval/air and ground units whittles down the list pretty quick.

In this sort of situation, I figure I'll just have to suck up the penalties for density and lack of cooperation and throw in the Ignore Losses factor. Of course, that will mean my casualties will be horrendous, which may put me back where I started when I can't hold my little sliver of sand.

PaladinSix


(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 3
RE: Get Off the Beach - 6/27/2006 1:55:30 AM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaladinSix

The name of the exact scenario escapes me at the moment (I'm at work), but its something like D-Day; France 1944. Its the longer of the two D-Day scenarios in the TOAW III directory.


Bob Cross' scenario? OK, Bob's design style is a bit different from the norm so I'll bear that in mind. It's not necessarily a bad style, it just requires an adjustment in the way you play.

quote:

As far as the density is concerned, the 4th, 29th and 1st IDs (US) start pretty much stacked up in one hex, which means they are all on "red" density warnings. I'm willing to take the extra casualties that will cause, as long as I can hold at least a few beachheads through the first turn. I believe the same is true for the Brits and Canadians in the Gold/Juno/Sword sector.


OK, the density penalty from this is one thing- but Bob has also lowered the attrition divider to four in line with his philosophy for this setting. This means that losses will be particularly punishing, especially for soft targets. Looking at this in the editor, I'd recommend attacking with no more than two regiments or brigades in any direction (that is, from one single hex into another single hex), and no engineers except instead of infantry. Back this up with artillery and armoured battalions, as the former don't contribute much to the density penalty, and the latter suffer less from it.

Because of the low attrition divider, your units will take a lot of losses very quickly, and this will make them want to break off combat. So it is absolutely essential to stick them on "ignore losses". Cycle units in and out of action, and don't cram the beaches too tight.

quote:

I think where I'm getting screwed up is in the cooperation levels. At first, I seem to have way more fire support than I could reasonably need, but as soon as I start to assign them, the limited cooperation between some of the naval/air and ground units whittles down the list pretty quick.


Don't sweat limited co-operation, especially with the low attrition divider. Throw in lots of support and you should see the soft targets just melting away. Avoid the armour as a) it'll be much tougher to kill and b) it may consume multiple rounds.

I'm going to run through a couple of turns of this on hotseat (in COW... I don't have my copy of III yet) to see how it goes. I'll get back to you.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 6/27/2006 2:00:06 AM >

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to PaladinSix)
Post #: 4
RE: Get Off the Beach - 6/27/2006 2:54:26 AM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Well, it works if you set up the attacks right, use naval support (have the destroyers bombard passively so you don't lose them) and stick everyone on ignore losses. Here's my situation after the first Allied turn;




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 5
RE: Get Off the Beach - 6/27/2006 3:30:56 PM   
Catch21

 

Posts: 511
Joined: 4/13/2006
From: Dublin
Status: offline 		An alternative is to try 2 Weeks in Normandy. This has you on your beaches at start. But it will give you a chance to try out Naval, Air Support and paras first (though they start on ground too), before landing craft.

If you try this, I'd suggest keep your naval units carefully positioned out of coastal gun range and use in direct fire support mode. Air I'd recommend mostly be used for bridge attacks (especially rail) to keep reinforcements away from beaches as long as possible. Check cloud cover at target. There's no German air so any fighters can go on interdiction. You've got enough air as Allies there's enough to go round to influence combat in direct support mode too.

Carentan and Pegasus Bridge are critical to get ASAP. The first cripples supply to the north-west (look at the rail net), the latter can hamstring an attack on the eastern beaches. Rightly recognized as keys back then. There's some excellent AARs out there on this one to help you too.

Hope this helps.

_____________________________

Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
(J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 6
RE: Get Off the Beach - 6/27/2006 3:38:44 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
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From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff

An alternative is to try 2 Weeks in Normandy. This has you on your beaches at start. But it will give you a chance to try out Naval, Air Support and paras first (though they start on ground too), before landing craft.


Also, looking at Bob's scenario, I don't think it's really very good for D-Day. Interdiction is too diluted over the huge map, among other things. As I understand it this is just an adaption from his other scenario which starts with Cobra anyway.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Catch21)
Post #: 7
RE: Get Off the Beach - 6/27/2006 7:54:19 PM   
PaladinSix

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 1/7/2006
Status: offline 		Well, I think I will take General Staff's advice and try something that starts with a beachhead well established.  However, for future reference, I'd like to try and replicate GD's start.  So far, I haven't been able to get that far in three turns, much less in one.  And I can't help but notice that in your screenshot, the Germans are the ones reorganizing and routed.  When I try it, its usually the other way around.

So, I'm pretty sure I'm missing some fundamental thing here.  The fortunes of war don't explain the wide variation in results between GD and myself.  Granted, he's probably just better than I am, but's thats kind of my point.

I'll try it again tonight from Turn 1, and see if I can't figure this thing out.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 8
RE: Get Off the Beach - 6/27/2006 9:58:36 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaladinSix

So, I'm pretty sure I'm missing some fundamental thing here.  The fortunes of war don't explain the wide variation in results between GD and myself.  Granted, he's probably just better than I am, but's thats kind of my point.


In something this tactical, there's only so much one can do to be "better". Use ignore losses, don't put too much into attacking across any one hexside, and pour in support to all your attacks. There's very little more to it than that.

Other than that, are you playing against the PO and using the handicap which boosts the strength of PO units? That might cause problems. It's also possible that the boosted AA in TOAW III is making your airpower less effective, but this shouldn't be catastrophic.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to PaladinSix)
Post #: 9
RE: Get Off the Beach - 6/28/2006 12:48:12 AM   
PaladinSix

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 1/7/2006
Status: offline 		I am playing against the PO, but I don't think I have it set to handicap the human player.  I'll check that tonight. 

I have noticed that, as best as I can tell, the massive amounts of air power at my disposal don't seem to make much of a difference, at least not in the battles around the beachhead.  Even putting all available air units on combat support and pounding the Germans doesn't seem to add that much to the attacks.  However, I'm not suffering massive losses from his AA either, so I think the boosted AA is not the problem.

One thing that occurs to me is the order and timing of my attacks.  Previously, I have been moving a (very) few units around and then setting up four or five attacks and executing them all at once and then doing it again.  This means that my support is split four or five ways.  Although it burns more time, I suppose it might be more beneficial to set up one attack with massive support, execute it, and then set another, etc.  Its not like my units need a whole lot of movement points; they're not going farther than one or two hexes inland.

PaladinSix

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 10
RE: Get Off the Beach - 6/28/2006 12:55:59 AM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaladinSix

One thing that occurs to me is the order and timing of my attacks.  Previously, I have been moving a (very) few units around and then setting up four or five attacks and executing them all at once and then doing it again.  This means that my support is split four or five ways.  Although it burns more time, I suppose it might be more beneficial to set up one attack with massive support, execute it, and then set another, etc.  Its not like my units need a whole lot of movement points; they're not going farther than one or two hexes inland.


This isn't necessary. I attacked in loads of places each round in the game I played.

One important point is to use your artillery. Bob in his wisdom has provided this on turn one so it can fire while its still embarked at sea. You have a cost benefit analysis to make between passive support and direct support. Since the units lose all their move if they fire directly whilst at sea, I'd recommend no direct fire until the last round of the turn.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to PaladinSix)
Post #: 11
RE: Get Off the Beach - 6/28/2006 3:13:17 AM   
PaladinSix

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 1/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaladinSix

One thing that occurs to me is the order and timing of my attacks. Previously, I have been moving a (very) few units around and then setting up four or five attacks and executing them all at once and then doing it again. This means that my support is split four or five ways. Although it burns more time, I suppose it might be more beneficial to set up one attack with massive support, execute it, and then set another, etc. Its not like my units need a whole lot of movement points; they're not going farther than one or two hexes inland.


This isn't necessary. I attacked in loads of places each round in the game I played.

One important point is to use your artillery. Bob in his wisdom has provided this on turn one so it can fire while its still embarked at sea. You have a cost benefit analysis to make between passive support and direct support. Since the units lose all their move if they fire directly whilst at sea, I'd recommend no direct fire until the last round of the turn.



WHAT? It never even occured to me that the "embarked" artillery could be used before it hit the beach. I was a little puzzled by the "roads in the ocean" approach to amphib ops, but I liked the fact that the map wasn't cluttered with LSTs and transports.

I guess I was looking at the scenario from a perspective that was a little too realistic, rather than considering how the game engine saw things. I was assuming the artillery was on ships and unavailable for support. But, of course, as far as the combat engine is concerned, the artillery is on a road (just a rather damp one).

Anyway, throwing the artillery into the fight should up my supporting fires considerably and probably break the deadlock I've been facing.

Thanks for all your help on this, GD. I knew there was SOMETHING I was doing wrong, I just couldn't see it.

PaladinSix

< Message edited by PaladinSix -- 6/28/2006 3:14:41 AM >

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 12
RE: Get Off the Beach - 6/28/2006 3:55:21 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaladinSix

WHAT? It never even occured to me that the "embarked" artillery could be used before it hit the beach. I was a little puzzled by the "roads in the ocean" approach to amphib ops, but I liked the fact that the map wasn't cluttered with LSTs and transports.


I see Bob's reasoning behind the whole "roads in the ocean" approach. It would have been practically impossible to change the destinations of the units in response to tactical considerations, so it makes sense to have them all landing at the historical beaches.

quote:

I guess I was looking at the scenario from a perspective that was a little too realistic, rather than considering how the game engine saw things. I was assuming the artillery was on ships and unavailable for support. But, of course, as far as the combat engine is concerned, the artillery is on a road (just a rather damp one).


Yeah. I think Bob slipped up here. He should have a house rule, or else had the units appear on the beaches on turn 2.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to PaladinSix)
Post #: 13
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