The Hit and Run Play

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The Hit and Run Play - 7/2/2006 3:30:13 AM

KG Erwin

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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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Someone asked why you can't do this with two outs, and the answer is this -- it's similar to a sac bunt, but the batter attempts a grounder that can advance runners but also creates an out.

It makes no sense to try this play with two outs, which is why the option is not available in that situation.

Now, if you have good runners on first and third with one or no outs, and your batter has good contact and eye ratings, then the hit & run is a viable option. You have an excellent chance to drive in a run.

I love this play, but you gotta factor the percentages of success. This is just one of the myriad reasons why in-game managing is so much fun.

Post #: 1

RE: The Hit and Run Play - 7/2/2006 4:50:53 AM

Leegen

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Joined: 7/1/2006
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My view of the hit and run is its an attempt by the batter to put the ball in play with the runner going on the pitch regardless of number of outs. The optimal result is a hit with the runner picking up an extra base. Hit potential is increased by the hole vacated by the infielder covering the base on the steal. A good strategy to use when you have decent but not great speed on first and a good contact hitter at the plate regardless of the number of outs. Sometimes it's even better with two outs, because you don't have to worry about lineing into a double play. I was just wondering why it's excluded from the game when its a viable managerial option. As you say, a sacrifice makes no sense with 2 outs (although bunting for a hit might).

Thanks for the response. I had just assumed it was a bug, not a conscious decision.

_____________________________

"But sir, how would that make him a better general?" Lee to Longstreet's request to courtmartial Stuart for disobeying orders.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 2

RE: The Hit and Run Play - 7/2/2006 6:15:25 AM

matt0177

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Joined: 6/17/2006
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I too have often wanted to hit and run with 2 outs, the only reason I could ever think that this might not be in the game is that there would be no real disadvantage to using it with two outs. Your fear on the hit and run is usaaly that the batter strikes out and the runner gets gunned down, obviously this wouldnt be possible with two outs, not sure if that is the reason for the missing option, but its one thought.

(in reply to Leegen)

Post #: 3

RE: The Hit and Run Play - 7/2/2006 6:48:43 AM

KG Erwin

Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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No, you guys are missing the point. A hit and run, if executed properly, results in a ground out, advancing runners and/or possibly scoring a run. It basically serves the same purpose as a sac bunt or a sac fly. None of this applies when there's two outs. Got it?

(in reply to matt0177)

Post #: 4

RE: The Hit and Run Play - 7/2/2006 11:09:25 AM

CaL�KrAzY

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Joined: 7/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

No, you guys are missing the point.� A hit and run, if executed properly, results in a ground�out,�advancing runners and/or possibly scoring a run.�� It basically serves the same purpose as a sac bunt or a sac fly.�� None of this applies when there's two outs. Got it?� ��

KG, I think your thinking of something else. Leegan said it best but I grabbed somethin to help out...

A hit and run is a play in baseball where the baserunners are put in motion before the ball is hit and the batter is required to attempt to make contact with the pitch, whether it is a ball or strike. Usually this is employed when a good contact hitter is at the plate. Often, on a hit-and-run play the batter will try to "hit behind the runner" by hitting the ball to right field which makes it more likely that the runner will be able to go from first to third on a single, or even score from first on a double. Another goal of a hit and run is to open up holes in the infield for the batter to hit the ball through, since either the shortstop or second baseman will have to cover second base when they see the runner moving.

Hit and run plays are most frequently used by teams without many power hitters in the lineup, as they may have to "manufacture runs" this way on occasion.

If the batter does not make contact, then the runner is left to attempt a stolen base on his own, and he may be caught. Even a very fast runner who can normally steal a base is more likely caught stealing if the batter does not make contact, because he is unable to choose the proper pitch to get a good 'jump', and is not expecting to have to try to steal. Also, if a hit ball is caught in the air by a fielder while the runners are in motion (making an out in the process), a double play�or, in much rarer instances, a triple play�can be made. On the other hand, the hit and run is often used in an attempt to avoid the common "second to first" double play, as the runner on first will have a better chance to beat the throw to second.

In the rare circumstance that a hit and run is executed with a bunt, it is called a bunt and run. A bunt and run that begins with a runner on second base can lead to a run scored if, as the fielder fields the bunt and throws to first, the runner continues around third base and attempts to score. If a base runner starts the bunt and run from third base, the batter is said to be laying down a "squeeze bunt." The "squeeze bunt" requires excellent timing on the part of both the batter and the runner so that neither player reveals the play too soon, yet neither player begins their responsibility too late to successfully execute the "squeeze bunt" and score a run.

A related play is the less formal run and hit, similar to the hit and run, except with a fast runner on first base who is capable of stealing. The batter is given the option of hitting, with prior knowledge that the runner will be moving with the pitch. This differs from a straight steal in that the batter is encouraged to swing, instead of being prevented from swinging.

Most of the 13 unassisted triple plays in Major League Baseball history have occurred during hit and run plays with runners on first and second base.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hit_and_run_%28baseball%29"

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 5

RE: The Hit and Run Play - 7/2/2006 11:24:47 AM

Leegen

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I get your point, just don't agree with it. I never hit and run hoping for an out. It's more like a safety steal or 1/2 steal. I want the batter to get a hit (aided by the infielder moving) and the runner to get an extra base. If the purpose of the play was to sacrifice yourself to advance a runner, then scoring rules would not charge the batter with an at bat. But, in fact, you are charged with an AB because you're trying to get a hit. To check myself, i searched several sites on the internet and could find nothing relating the hit and run to a sacrifice play. I don't mean to be difficult - just don't use the h&r the same way as you.

If this game doesn't model it that way, then that's fine. I was just surprised to find it that way - that's all.

_____________________________

"But sir, how would that make him a better general?" Lee to Longstreet's request to courtmartial Stuart for disobeying orders.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 6

RE: The Hit and Run Play - 7/2/2006 6:47:55 PM

KG Erwin

Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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Ok, guys, thanks for going into more detail. I shouldn't have implied that I was hoping for an out, but more often than not, that's what happens.

"So, KG, what do you think of your team's execution?"
KG: "I'm all for it."

(in reply to Leegen)

Post #: 7

RE: The Hit and Run Play - 7/3/2006 12:35:40 AM

lynchjm24

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Joined: 8/21/2005
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.

< Message edited by lynchjm24 -- 7/3/2006 12:36:27 AM >

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 8

RE: The Hit and Run Play - 7/3/2006 1:01:29 AM

rowech

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Joined: 6/9/2005
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Hit and run is taking a chance at getting an extra base advance on a hit, opening up a hole to hit through, with the understanding you'll be usually sacrificing some extra base hit power and accepting that a ground out is a positive.

The reason you don't hit and run with two outs is baserunners are of on contact anyway.

(in reply to lynchjm24)

Post #: 9

RE: The Hit and Run Play - 7/6/2006 4:41:28 AM

Amaroq

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
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I think you can make good arguments for including both the 'hit and run' and the 'run and hit', and allowing either with 2 outs.

The current PureSim implementation is fairly simplistic: you can only 'hit and run', and can only do it with 0 or 1 outs. The advantage with a successful hit is the possibility of extra-base advance, or advancing on a ground out that would otherwise have been a double-play. The disadvantage is the possibility of a line-out or fly-out double play. Finally, if the batter strikes out, there is a play on the runner at second base, which might or might not result in a stolen base or a caught stealing.

...

You could change this implementation a bit, accounting for both as follows, by adding the possibility of a pitch taken resulting in a stolen base or attempted steal. The runner might be thrown out stealing second without the ball being put in play, or the third out being made, just like a normal steal attempt.

In the 'hit and run' case, increase the chance of the batter striking out, or hitting a ground ball. Decrease the chance of the batter hitting a home run, or drawing a walk. A 'pitch out' is especially devastating, as - unless the batter has a great Eye - the result is a strike, plus an easy play on the runner.

In the 'run and hit' case, don't impact the batter-pitcher result at all. Treat it very similar to a 'steal', with the possibility of a play at second (or third). However, keep the 'hit and run' impact to the runners on ground balls, line outs, and fly outs. A 'pitch out' typically results in a ball, plus a play on the runner.

For both cases, allow it with
- a runner on first (play at second)
- a runner on first and third (play at second, possibility of the runner scoring from third on the play at second)
- a runner on first and second (play at third, possibility of the triple play)

By having play results which don't end the batter's at bat, there becomes something to think about in the 2-out case: is it worth seeing the runner thrown out because the batter couldn't make contact?

(in reply to rowech)

Post #: 10