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'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/29/2006 1:39:47 AM   
macgregor


Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline 		I've recieved this and would like to know what my opponent did for me to recieve this.
Post #: 1
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/29/2006 1:49:45 AM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		The message is intended to indicate that the other player has reloaded the scenario (and therefore cheated by playing the turn several times) but it is known to be bugged. So you should probably ignore the message.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to macgregor)
Post #: 2
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/29/2006 1:56:20 AM   
Okimaw


Posts: 268
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Land of the brave, home of the Cree
Status: offline 		I get them almost every turn, they're pretty damned annoying

_____________________________

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(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 3
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/29/2006 1:59:54 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Okimaw
I get them almost every turn, they're pretty damned annoying


yeah, me too. Okimaw and I are playing with different versions however, so I attributed the messages to that. Possible?

(in reply to Okimaw)
Post #: 4
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/29/2006 2:04:16 AM   
macgregor


Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline 		Surely there is some behavior that has caused this. If there is something 'excusable' that may have been done, I simply want to know what it is. If it is still amazingly easy to cheat I would like to know that as well. This was an important issue, as most of the opponents are only known from websites only, and not above suspicion. I had issues like this with aCoW which caused me to stop playing PBEM. Is there anything you can tell me to restore my faith in playing the 'new' version PBEM?

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 5
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/29/2006 2:09:49 AM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Surely there is some behavior that has caused this. If there is something 'excusable' that may have been done, I simply want to know what it is.


I haven't PBMed TOAW III so I can't tell you exactly, but the impression I get is that it's hard not to generate this message.

quote:

If it is still amazingly easy to cheat I would like to know that as well.


Almost certainly. I wouldn't worry about it. Most people have enough of a sense of morality to prevent them from cheating in a game where winning or losing has no consequences.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to macgregor)
Post #: 6
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/29/2006 2:10:46 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor
Is there anything you can tell me to restore my faith in playing the 'new' version PBEM?


Not quite. I suppose one way to still cheat is to put the pbl file from your opponent on a floppy and set the floppy to "read only" and reload it from there over and over.

Just a thought.

(in reply to macgregor)
Post #: 7
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/29/2006 2:15:53 AM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Not quite. I suppose one way to still cheat is to put the pbl file from your opponent on a floppy and set the floppy to "read only" and reload it from there over and over.


Mm. Not to mention another very nasty exploit which may not be widely known.

Really, I think the idea of making TOAW completely cheat-proof is a fantasy. The best that can be done is making it necessary to premeditate the act. Fewer people will do that. As it is, some of the design functionality has been removed by the efforts to prevent cheating. I can see it getting worse.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 8
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/29/2006 2:19:41 AM   
Okimaw


Posts: 268
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Land of the brave, home of the Cree
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Okimaw
I get them almost every turn, they're pretty damned annoying


yeah, me too. Okimaw and I are playing with different versions however, so I attributed the messages to that. Possible?

Actually I've had them with all 14 or so opponents I've had since TOAW 3 was released. I thought it may have something to do with not everyone being patched up at first but when I made sure we all had .14 or .17 installed I still kept getting them. Not every turn mind you but often enough that I ignore the messages now.

< Message edited by Okimaw -- 8/29/2006 3:03:00 AM >

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Post #: 9
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/29/2006 2:24:53 AM   
macgregor


Posts: 990
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks guys. My other opponent's file didn't contain this message. I've seen some crazy ways people try to take advantage of their knowledge of programming to help their game results so I'm not buying that everyone is trustwothy, they're not. If I can find someone whose files don't contain this message, guess who I'm playing against?

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 10
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/29/2006 3:31:41 AM   
Menschenfresser

 

Posts: 252
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: United States
Status: offline 		Dunnoo...I have three games with III going and I've never seen the message. Although, I have noticed a tendency for III to freeze when making .sals. I've had it freeze twice. In both cases, the game froze, but still some how managed to produce an .sal. I had to kill III from the task manager. If it freezes and leaves you without a save file, then you will get the message having to reopen an old save.


_____________________________

Make wargames, not war.

(in reply to macgregor)
Post #: 11
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/29/2006 4:56:05 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		I believe we're getting some false positives from people reviewing their previous saved games from the end of the turns (or possibly even mid-turn saves). Getting this fixed is a priority, as soon as Ralph is back in the saddle...

(in reply to Menschenfresser)
Post #: 12
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/29/2006 9:36:16 AM   
bluermonkey

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 10/9/2005
Status: offline 		Well I may as well say that I'm Mr. Macgregor's opponent. I think the reason he is getting this message is that I have been having some problems with TOAW III freezing on my computer before I start the turn proper, so am occasionaly having to restart the game and reload, that could be the cause. Which is a problem if all of my opponents are going to think I'm cheating.

I'm also getting a .EVENT ERRORS text file in my saves folder concerning this scenario, not sure if that could be the cause?

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 13
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/29/2006 4:12:34 PM   
hank

 

Posts: 623
Joined: 8/24/2003
From: west tn
Status: offline 		I don't see how you can make a program cheat proof ... without messing with some of the functionality like somebody above mentioned.  I think a good group of gamers like ToaW'ers, or BiN'ers, or PzC'ers have to police their own.  If you're caught proved to be cheating ... you're banned from ladder play.   ... or something like that.

I know SSG's anti cheat measures have made it less user friendly imho.  (with BiN and KP you had to play the game on the computer you started the game on when playing in secure mode ... that causes some problems if a 'puter crashes ... or you have to travel and want to play on your laptop, but started the game on your home puter ... etc etc.)

just another 2 cents

by the way, i get moves also quite frequently with the restart message ... i can't tell its helping my opponents

(in reply to bluermonkey)
Post #: 14
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/30/2006 10:50:26 AM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

I believe we're getting some false positives from people reviewing their previous saved games from the end of the turns (or possibly even mid-turn saves). Getting this fixed is a priority, as soon as Ralph is back in the saddle...


..try scrapping it, nice idea and all that buttttttt......

..i get a lot of brown-outs so i save frequently, even so, one power down and i have to reload from the save, and so generate the message..

..or there was the time i forgot which save was the latest (a bad night with baby) so reloaded from an earlier one, same following move but again, that message..


_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 15
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/30/2006 8:12:12 PM   
Raindem

 

Posts: 696
Joined: 7/15/2000
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		There's a way to cheat-proof this part of the game but it would slow PBEM down to a crawl. When a player is done moving the engine resolves combat but does not display any results. The file must be sent to his opponent who will view the playback and return the file without any further action. The original player then views the results of his last round and proceeds to the next round. So by the time a player sees the results it is too late to change them.

It wouldn't affect the other cheats but it would solve the issue of replaying the turn until you get a result you like.

(in reply to a white rabbit)
Post #: 16
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/30/2006 8:25:56 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raindem

There's a way to cheat-proof this part of the game but it would slow PBEM down to a crawl.


Quite. Cheat-proofing the game will remove so much functionality that it's not worth it.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Raindem)
Post #: 17
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/31/2006 6:46:24 PM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline 		Question: does it constitute cheating if you attempt to disengage a unit, it is routed, so you hit the "go back" button. I feel highly conflicted about this issue, because I'm not aware of any way to ascertain the level of engagement a unit is experiencing, and thus, no way to know if a unit has the ability to retreat successfully or not, without trying to retreat. This does not seem realistic to me. It seems to me that, at the operational level (though perhaps not at the squad or platoon level) a unit would have some sense of whether or not it was pinned down by nearby enemy units or not.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 18
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/31/2006 6:51:58 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Question: does it constitute cheating if you attempt to disengage a unit, it is routed, so you hit the "go back" button. I feel highly conflicted about this issue, because I'm not aware of any way to ascertain the level of engagement a unit is experiencing, and thus, no way to know if a unit has the ability to retreat successfully or not, without trying to retreat. This does not seem realistic to me. It seems to me that, at the operational level (though perhaps not at the squad or platoon level) a unit would have some sense of whether or not it was pinned down by nearby enemy units or not.

Yes, it is cheating (if you're playing another human). If you're playing on your own, then anything goes. You could consider it an "educational experience" then...

The "sense" that you have as to whether a unit will be pinned down, relies on your experience with the game, and the knowledge you have of the battlefield particulars. For example, relative sizes of your units, are you retreating through consecutive ezoc's, relative recon strengths of the units involved, support assets within range that can bombard the retreating unit, etc. You need to develop that sense by playing and doing, and sometimes failing.

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 19
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/31/2006 7:23:06 PM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Question: does it constitute cheating if you attempt to disengage a unit, it is routed, so you hit the "go back" button. I feel highly conflicted about this issue, because I'm not aware of any way to ascertain the level of engagement a unit is experiencing, and thus, no way to know if a unit has the ability to retreat successfully or not, without trying to retreat. This does not seem realistic to me. It seems to me that, at the operational level (though perhaps not at the squad or platoon level) a unit would have some sense of whether or not it was pinned down by nearby enemy units or not.

Yes, it is cheating (if you're playing another human). If you're playing on your own, then anything goes. You could consider it an "educational experience" then...

The "sense" that you have as to whether a unit will be pinned down, relies on your experience with the game, and the knowledge you have of the battlefield particulars. For example, relative sizes of your units, are you retreating through consecutive ezoc's, relative recon strengths of the units involved, support assets within range that can bombard the retreating unit, etc. You need to develop that sense by playing and doing, and sometimes failing.


Doh! Well you gotta give me credit for being honest enough to ask!

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 20
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 8/31/2006 8:31:06 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Doh! Well you gotta give me credit for being honest enough to ask!

Indeed! Cheers...

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 21
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 9/10/2006 5:10:40 PM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Question: does it constitute cheating if you attempt to disengage a unit, it is routed, so you hit the "go back" button. I feel highly conflicted about this issue, because I'm not aware of any way to ascertain the level of engagement a unit is experiencing, and thus, no way to know if a unit has the ability to retreat successfully or not, without trying to retreat. This does not seem realistic to me. It seems to me that, at the operational level (though perhaps not at the squad or platoon level) a unit would have some sense of whether or not it was pinned down by nearby enemy units or not.

Yes, it is cheating (if you're playing another human). If you're playing on your own, then anything goes. You could consider it an "educational experience" then...

The "sense" that you have as to whether a unit will be pinned down, relies on your experience with the game, and the knowledge you have of the battlefield particulars. For example, relative sizes of your units, are you retreating through consecutive ezoc's, relative recon strengths of the units involved, support assets within range that can bombard the retreating unit, etc. You need to develop that sense by playing and doing, and sometimes failing.



..wot 'e said

..picking up the same wrong unit and moving it, repeatedly in some cases, (i'd got mouse happy) isn't



< Message edited by a white rabbit -- 9/10/2006 5:13:32 PM >

_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 22
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 9/10/2006 5:17:44 PM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raindem

There's a way to cheat-proof this part of the game but it would slow PBEM down to a crawl.


Quite. Cheat-proofing the game will remove so much functionality that it's not worth it.


..wot 'e said too..


_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 23
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 9/10/2006 10:05:04 PM   
RERomine

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 7/19/2006
Status: offline 		Why is cheat-proofing so difficult?

The obvious problem, which occurs with most PBEM games is if one person doesn't like the outcome of their turn they either reload the file or overlay the file(s) from the email attachment and try again.  This goes on until the player is happy with the outcome of their turn.

Seems to me the fix can be accomplished by behind the scenes functionality in all programs that have PBEM capability.  By utilizing two sequence numbers in the saved email games and one on each game computer, that would make cheating at least more difficult.  The idea behind this is that if the sequence number for computer A on the email file doesn't match the sequence number on computer A, the file doesn't load.  The same applies to computer B.  As a turn proceeds, the sequence number on the game computers periodically increments.  Now the sequence numbers are out of sync.  The only way to sync them back up is to save the file, which saves the sequence number on the game computer to the email save file.  It would not be possible to reload the file without a prior save or to replace the file from the email attachment.

This idea isn't without some problems, but I haven't given it a lot of in-depth thought.  One problem is the s**t happens factor: computers lock up, power goes out, etc. The periodically incrementing sequence number on the computer is now out of sync with the email save.  It would be possible to have the sequence number on the crashed computer reset by having your opponent resending the email save with a flag set in it to allow the reset to occur.  By doing it this way, at least the opponent might at least have a clue they are being cheated.  The game only continues with the opponent's permission.  Another problem is the saved game isn't portable.  I for one have OAW and SPWaW on two different computers.  Obviously, in this scenario, the likelihood of both computers having the same sequence number for PBEM slot 1 is very slim.  And yet another problem is the first turn of player one.  Since the game hasn't been saved yet, the sequence number on the email save file hasn't been set.  Player one could play the first turn over and over again until they like the outcome.  I don't have any answers for this one yet.

This is an alternate way of looking at a solution.  While it won't stop someone really determined to cheat, it will make it more difficult.  This solution would avoid the need to have mid-turn email file exchanges.  The incrementing sequence number on the game computer shouldn't burn much CPU.  In fact, I doubt the difference would even be noticed.

On a different note, there are many games out there with 'undo' buttons.  The solution is simply to disable the undo button when something significant happens, i.e. borders change, new units spotted, moved unit damaged, etc.  I've seen this done in many of the games that have 'undo' buttons, so it's not a new idea.

Well, that's my two cents.
 

(in reply to a white rabbit)
Post #: 24
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 9/10/2006 10:56:10 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RERomine

And yet another problem is the first turn of player one.  Since the game hasn't been saved yet, the sequence number on the email save file hasn't been set.  Player one could play the first turn over and over again until they like the outcome.  I don't have any answers for this one yet.


Require the force two player to start any PBM game. The only thing they do is enter their password and this produces the first file, together with your sequence number

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to RERomine)
Post #: 25
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 9/10/2006 11:04:25 PM   
Fidel_Helms

 

Posts: 405
Joined: 3/9/2003
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
I haven't PBMed TOAW III so I can't tell you exactly, but the impression I get is that it's hard not to generate this message.


LOL. The schadenfreude I get from this could power a small city for a few days.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 26
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 9/10/2006 11:14:35 PM   
RERomine

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 7/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: RERomine

And yet another problem is the first turn of player one.  Since the game hasn't been saved yet, the sequence number on the email save file hasn't been set.  Player one could play the first turn over and over again until they like the outcome.  I don't have any answers for this one yet.


Require the force two player to start any PBM game. The only thing they do is enter their password and this produces the first file, together with your sequence number


I thought about that, but the problem is player 1 hasn't saved anything yet so their sequence number isn't on the email save file. It would be possible to have an exchange of save files before the game play actually begins. This way, when player 1 moves their first unit, sequence numbers from both players is stored on the save file. It does cause an additional bit of overhead at the beginning of the game, but results in a more than likely clean game. I've been on the short end of email cheats before and it's not fun. You can learn more from losing a game to a good player than you can by cheating.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 27
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 9/11/2006 12:05:36 AM   
Okimaw


Posts: 268
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Land of the brave, home of the Cree
Status: offline 		You know....with all this talk of the neccessity of the current "anti cheat" pain in the butt feature, how come I've never heard of who these cheaters were/are? It's a no no to bring up names on the forums and there's no blacklist anywhere. BTW how could anyone tell if someone was cheating in the earlier versionsAnd now we have the ladder custodians over at the blitz ladder saying the reload messages are all valid and will be treated as cheating. I can say that I have never cheated and don't suspect any of my opponents of ever cheating and I get these stupid reload messages almost daily (I tend to play a lot). So now I won't accept any blitz ladder challenges as I certainly don't need the hassle of being accused of cheating because of a known bug in the game.  

_____________________________

I have returned

(in reply to RERomine)
Post #: 28
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 9/11/2006 1:09:57 AM   
RERomine

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 7/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Okimaw

You know....with all this talk of the neccessity of the current "anti cheat" pain in the butt feature, how come I've never heard of who these cheaters were/are? It's a no no to bring up names on the forums and there's no blacklist anywhere. BTW how could anyone tell if someone was cheating in the earlier versionsAnd now we have the ladder custodians over at the blitz ladder saying the reload messages are all valid and will be treated as cheating. I can say that I have never cheated and don't suspect any of my opponents of ever cheating and I get these stupid reload messages almost daily (I tend to play a lot). So now I won't accept any blitz ladder challenges as I certainly don't need the hassle of being accused of cheating because of a known bug in the game.  


Honestly, there is no way to tell if someone is cheating or just good. Just have to have trust in the people you play against. But if events start defying probability, you can't help but wonder. Obviously Matrix has at least considered the possibility or the "Opponent may have reloaded (x) times" message wouldn't exist. Better to eliminate, or at least greatly reduce, the risk of cheating so you won't have to refuse games to avoid possibly being accused.

(in reply to Okimaw)
Post #: 29
RE: 'Opponent may have reloaded (x) times' - 9/11/2006 12:06:38 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Okimaw

You know....with all this talk of the neccessity of the current "anti cheat" pain in the butt feature, how come I've never heard of who these cheaters were/are?


I can only definitively identify one cheater, but then I don't play against people I don't already know. Don't feel like naming and shaming right now.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Okimaw)
Post #: 30
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