Is it time to break up the dynasty?

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Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/9/2006 7:38:27 PM

rowech

Posts: 215
Joined: 6/9/2005
Status: offline

Could be time for me to switch jobs. Draft league started in 1969 and has now finished 1985. 35 man rosters. Expansion after the 1982 season from 24 teams to 28 teams. Some team highlights:

.610 winning percentage (.631 after the first three season)
14 Division Titles
9 Pennants
7 World Series Titles (5 out of 6 from 1976-1981)
8 seasons of over 100 wins including two with 111 wins

The first segment of the dynasty was broken up after the 1978 season. 1976 was 107 wins and a title, 1977 was 103 wins and a title, 1978 was 97 wins and a title. The breakup started and in 1979 there were 95 wins but no world series appearance. The second stage of the dynasty actually started earlier than expected.

1980 was expected to be similar to 1979 as we waited for our young guys to develop. It was quicker than that. They won 92 games, snuck into the playoffs and won it all. 1981 was 97 more wins and a title. Then the unexpected...1982 was 109 wins but no title. 1983 won 108 games and the title, 1984 105 wins and no title but 1985 was the best as there were 111 wins and a title.

Typically done with the #1 payrool although 3 championships occurred when I was out of the top 5 in payroll.

Some of the stars from the run:

Johnny Bench (1969-1979) 390 homeruns, 1078 RBI, .281 average
George Brett (1974-current) .303 average 2134 hits
Rod Carew (1969-1979) .299 average, 2121 hits
George Foster (1969-1979) .275 avearge, 297 homeruns, 937 RBI
Jim Rice (1975-1984) .301 average, 401 homeruns, 1923 hits, 1256 RBI (3 MVPs)

Vida Blue (1969-1984) 220-95 (.698) 3.21 ERA, 1933 strikeouts (5 cy youngs)
Steve Carlton (1969-1973) 75-48 (.610) 3.24 ERA 892 strikeouts
Dennis Eckersly (1975-1985) 163-78 (.676) 3.43 ERA, 1729 strikeouts (2 cy youngs)
Bob Forsch (1974-1982) 110-65 (.629) 3.60 ERA, 815 strikeouts
Tommy John (1969-1976) 112-66 (.629) 3.75 ERA, 942 strikeouts
Joe Niekro (1969-1977) 107-75 (.588) 3.77 ERA
Jerry Reuss (1970-1980) 94-51 (.648) 3.97 ERA
Dick Tidrow (1972-1980) 115-82 (.584) 4.00 ERA, 1014 strikeouts
Sparky Lyle (1969-1978) 3.24 ERA, 423 saves
Dan Quisenberry (1979-1985) 3.26 ERA, 295 saves

League Highlights:

Leon Durham .372 average highest in a season
Eddie Murray .322 average highest for a career
Eddie Murray 243 hits in a season
Reggis Smith 2829 hits
Willie Stargell 68 homeruns in a season
Dave Kingman 580 homeruns in a career
Dave Kingman 162 rbis in a season
Dave Kingman 1586 rbis in a career
Ron LeFlore 78 stolen bases in a season
Cesar Cedeno 520 stolen bases in a career

Of major not here is that runs is not included in the leaders on the almanac page...This is a MUST!

Vida Blue 236 career wins
Tom Seaver 2906 strikeouts

Also of note is the HOF. There needs to be MUCH WORK done here. The values for letting people into the HOF are WAY off.

This will be by 1986 lineup if I decide to play the season:

C Matt Nokes
1b Will Clark
2b Juan Samuel
ss Barry Larkin
3b George Brett
lf Rickey Henderson (might be traded)
cf Joe Carter (might be traded)/Kirby Puckett
rf Daryl Strawberry

Bench of Pat Borders, Lenny Harris, Bo Jackson, and Rafael Santana

Rotation:

Roger Clemens
Dennis Eckersley (soon to be moved to the bullpen)
Jack Morris
Fernando Valenzuela
Mark Langston

Bullpen:

Andy Hawkins
Mitch Williams
Dave Stewart (probably will switch with Eck)
Rob Murphy
Alejandro Pena
Dave Smith
Jeff Reardon

Strategies used:

1. No player loyalty at all. Basically, I dump guys for the most part as soon as the hit 32 or 33 years old. Vida Blue was the only real exception. This allows you to get younger but keeps value coming back. (I only do 1 for 1 trades)

2. Sign nothing but potential when signing free agents unless you have a need.

3. Always have 12 pitchers. It keeps the pitchers much fresher

4. Screw the bench. It's useless as far as I can tell. I'll get two OFers who are average, a middle infielder, a corner infielder, and a catcher.

5. Pitching is VERY valuable. In my minor league right now I have the following:

Wettleand
Brown
Leiter
Rijo

I love being able to trade the pitcher in the rotation when they get to a certain age and then bring a guy up to immediately fill in. If I can't, I buy them.

As you can see, I've built an unbelieavable team. Not to mention that other than Eck and Morris they're all basically under 30. I think I might win 120 games next year. I also might switch to owning the New York Mets. They are by far the worst original team in the leauge. In fact, three of the expansion teams have a better winning percentage overall. The only team worse is the expansion Diamondbacks.

Post #: 1

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/9/2006 8:56:19 PM

BauerPower

Posts: 41
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline

So what happened to you doesn't happen to me, I am playing with the following rules:

1)I never initiate trades. I only trade if the AI initiates the process. The trade must be 1 for 1 and the player I trade away must be the player the AI inquired about. The AI rarely inquires about aging veterans with high salaries, so this elimates the temptation to exploit the AI and dump salaries.

2) I do not participate in the free agent draft. Only the AI can sign free agents during the 16 week period. If I have to fill up my roster before spring training I can sign the scraps that are left over.

3) I play with larger rosters than 35 and finances on the highest level. Playing without finances would be better, but the annual draft does not work with financials off. This gives the AI less reason to dump good players for financial reasons or because of roster limitations.

I am hoping that with these handicaps I will not create a dynasty like yours and the game will be more of a challenge. However, I am waiting on the next patch before I continue my association. The main reason is that right now the almanac does not update the career splits from the first year of the association.

(in reply to rowech)

Post #: 2

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/9/2006 10:41:30 PM

SittingDuck

Posts: 1166
Joined: 9/1/2002
Status: offline

My thoughts on that:

1) in this you can only as a team get weaker, unless I am missing something. They'll always give you a worse player than you are trading. Now perhaps if it is in position that you need help (that they give you a player) and you are giving away from a position in which you are loaded - that's the only way I can see this type of trading being of value.

2) that actually is an excellent idea. I think I'll try a variant of it...

3) I haven't done w/o finances, so do mean there is no ammy draft? If not, how do players come into the league?

(in reply to BauerPower)

Post #: 3

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/9/2006 10:42:27 PM

SittingDuck

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Joined: 9/1/2002
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I say, take the worst team in that division and go after the team you built.

And make some changes to your house rules so you don't stock baseball demi-gods like trout.

(in reply to rowech)

Post #: 4

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/9/2006 11:10:59 PM

rowech

Posts: 215
Joined: 6/9/2005
Status: offline

I think the suggestion of waiting until all free agents are signed to fill your roster is actually a very nice idea. You can probably still get some decent players from what I've seen but you won't get the top notch players.

I don't like the idea of me not being able to initiate trades. I've found that as long as the deal is 1 for 1, I think the computer AI performs pretty well. (although I know some others don't)

You can rob them blind though as you put more players in there.

My options I'm debating:

1. Fictional league only so I don't know the players
2. Going back in history and taking over an expansion team at some point.
3. Taking the worst team in my current league.

(in reply to SittingDuck)

Post #: 5

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/9/2006 11:16:05 PM

akw4572

Posts: 96
Joined: 2/6/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rowech

I think the suggestion of waiting until all free agents are signed to fill your roster is actually a very nice idea. You can probably still get some decent players from what I've seen but you won't get the top notch players.

I don't like the idea of me not being able to initiate trades. I've found that as long as the deal is 1 for 1, I think the computer AI performs pretty well. (although I know some others don't)

You can rob them blind though as you put more players in there.

My options I'm debating:

1. Fictional league only so I don't know the players
2. Going back in history and taking over an expansion team at some point.
3. Taking the worst team in my current league.

Go fictional......let it run 5-6 years, expand, then take over an expansion team. Should be challenging.

(in reply to rowech)

Post #: 6

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/10/2006 12:14:39 AM

BauerPower

Posts: 41
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SittingDuck

My thoughts on that:

1) in this you can only as a team get weaker, unless I am missing something.� They'll always give you a worse player than you are trading.� Now perhaps if it is in position that you need help (that they give you a player) and you are giving away from a position in which you are loaded - that's the only way I can see this type of trading being of value.

2) that actually is an excellent idea.� I think I'll try a variant of it...

3) I haven't done w/o finances, so do mean there is no ammy draft?� If not, how do players come into the league?

1) It is good that my team gets weaker, otherwise it is too easy to win. This way I have to pay the piper if I give someone a bad contract and he collapses. I cannot trade them away, unless an AI GM asks for him. IMO trades make my teams too good too quick and that's why I stick to that rule.

3) With "no financials", there is a ammy draft, but only a couple of teams make picks. I have tried two different associations with "no financials" and both times only a couple of teams made picks in the first round and none in rounds 2-5. I thought after the first time that it happened because there was no free agency and therefore teams weren't losing any players and thus there was no roster space for draft picks. So the second time before the ammy draft I looked at each team and made sure each club had roster space for 5 players by force retiring a few slugs in A ball. But even when each team had the roster space the same thing happened, only a couple of teams made picks in the first round and no one picked anybody in rounds 2-5.

(in reply to SittingDuck)

Post #: 7

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/10/2006 12:24:19 AM

Amaroq

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline

SittingDuck - don't get too excited about #2, no participation in the free agent draft. It's not enough to feel like a 'crippling' constraint if you have a solid youth program.

Basically, the problem is that we only let players go when we want to - the AI lets players go as free agents some of the time, even when it should keep them. Since we can always draft new talent, and therefore we consistently improve the team year-over-year.

The 'best' limit I've found is cranking my team's financials down so low that I can't keep the minors stocked with high-potential players - because I can't afford to. It gives me frustratingly tough decisions about who to keep and who not to. One way to 'enforce' this on yourself is to cap your team's salary at slightly above the *first season* slary that you have - as players accrue years of experience, their salary demands increase, but your budget doesn't, so you get 'cramped' very quickly.

The other limits I've been toying with adding are
- Forced free agency: forcing myself to allow seven *big league* contracts to expire at the end of each season. Then, I'm forced to either overpay to retain the players, or to bring up youngsters to replace them. Under this approach, I would be intending to allow myself into free agency, but with the financial cramps described above.

- Skip first round: forcing myself to pass my first-round draft choice - possibly by selecting a super-scrub? I'm hoping that will prevent some of the over-stocking of my minor-league system.

Getting a bit further into things, I've been contemplating a 'hard-core' approach, to basically mimic the Rule 5 draft and minor-league free agency by forcing myself to
- Not renew minor-league players when their first contract with my club expires. So, if they've been in the minors for five years, then I have to let them test free agency.

- To check the lineup after Spring Training for any players in my AAA squad who should, by ratings, start for a different team in the association. Then, to make as *bad* a trade as I can to send that player to the team he would start for. Requirements for the trade would be - financial parity, and the 'received' player can't be one I percieve as having value to either team. I might either cut him or let his contract expire, as needed.

I'm not sure if that would be 'too much' - but I think it would certainly give me a lot more challenge!

(in reply to akw4572)

Post #: 8

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/10/2006 12:29:22 AM

SittingDuck

Posts: 1166
Joined: 9/1/2002
Status: offline

<CONTRACT_MODIFIER extension_influence="1.85" greed_threshold="96"/>

That extension influence is up from 1.415 and really works. Do a flat 2.0 and watch very few stars get away. Also, I upped the greed threshold from 92.

(in reply to Amaroq)

Post #: 9

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/10/2006 12:34:53 AM

Amaroq

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline

Nice, maybe I'll give that a try.

(in reply to SittingDuck)

Post #: 10

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/10/2006 12:43:38 AM

BauerPower

Posts: 41
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaroq

SittingDuck - don't get too excited about #2, no participation in the free agent draft. It's not enough to feel like a 'crippling' constraint if you have a solid youth program.

Basically, the problem is that we only let players go when we want to - the AI lets players go as free agents some of the time, even when it should keep them. Since we can always draft new talent, and therefore we consistently improve the team year-over-year.

The 'best' limit I've found is cranking my team's financials down so low that I can't keep the minors stocked with high-potential players - because I can't afford to. It gives me frustratingly tough decisions about who to keep and who not to. One way to 'enforce' this on yourself is to cap your team's salary at slightly above the *first season* slary that you have - as players accrue years of experience, their salary demands increase, but your budget doesn't, so you get 'cramped' very quickly.

I like a lot of your ideas, they would be more effective than mine. How do you crank down your team's financials? Is that done in the XML?

It's really too bad that we have to apply all these house rules because these games are sold as "be like a real life GM, signing free agents and swinging deals to improve your team and win the World Series." We should be trying to win, not putting up a bunch of barriers so we don't win. But I guess any game vs a computer AI is pretty much the same. It's in facing human GMs that these games get interesting. Are there any good leagues going on right now w/ puresim?

(in reply to Amaroq)

Post #: 11

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/10/2006 12:55:43 AM

henry296

Posts: 418
Joined: 5/12/2006
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BauerPower,

You can edit your team finances at any time from the Team Front Office screen.

(in reply to BauerPower)

Post #: 12

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/10/2006 1:18:33 AM

SittingDuck

Posts: 1166
Joined: 9/1/2002
Status: offline

I had a problem at the start of 1967 in watching Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Kaline, Koufax and Marichal not get resigned. Setting it to 2.0 seemed to do the trick, but I backed it away a bit so everything wasn't always a lock. I've gone up to 1.9 for this coming season.

(in reply to henry296)

Post #: 13

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/10/2006 1:45:27 AM

Amaroq

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BauerPower
I like a lot of your ideas, they would be more effective than mine. How do you crank down your team's financials? Is that done in the XML?

It's really too bad that we have to apply all these house rules because these games are sold as "be like a real life GM, signing free agents and swinging deals to improve your team and win the World Series." We should be trying to win, not putting up a bunch of barriers so we don't win. But I guess any game vs a computer AI is pretty much the same. It's in facing human GMs that these games get interesting. Are there any good leagues going on right now w/ puresim?

"Edit Region" button, I think, from the Front Office screen.

I can understand your feeling about house rules. I've been playing in the genre for years, and I haven't found a game that doesn't require *some* amount of house rules. I think part of the problems are a push-pull between 'realism' and 'competitiveness'. It is difficult enough to make a 'competitive' AI, but as soon as you do, people start complaining that it is 'unrealistic' because - for instance - the AI stops overpaying for players as much as real-world teams do. When people don't see the financial numbers they expect, you start getting "There's no player in my league earning more than $8M - there should be some players demanding $10-18M!" complaints. 'Fixing' those leads to less competitiveness - and we clever human players exploit the holes.

And in fact, in 'real life', a GM winds up with 'house rules'. The Giants, for example, have a 'pay Barry' house rule consuming tons of their payroll. Think of Steinbrenner's effect on the Yankees' GM, or of the Red Sox 'must counter anything the Yankees do' house rule.

In fact, I think we'll get our 'best' AI if we start creating wildly differing AI's - I want some GM's looking for OBP, some for AVG, some for SLG, some for HR's, some for speed+defense. Others might look at ratings such as Contact, Power, or Eye. In fact, if the 'park' informed that, so the Rockies were looking for HR hitters, and a team with a short right-field porch would pursue left-handed sluggers, that would add a ton to the game. Better, it means that for any player out there, there is one or two GM's who are interested in him. Some might be 'frugal', with others 'spendy'. Rather than having all of the teams roughly value the players at the same level, leading to bidding wars for one player and little interest in another, there would be more interest around every big-league capable player.

I think that would also help the trading situation.

Even better, we might see AI GM's with different overall strategies: you might have some who try to build from within (A's), others who try to build through money (Yankees), and others who try to build from trade (Reds?). You might even get 'sellers' like the Pirates, who try to milk the most value in return for players.

(in reply to BauerPower)

Post #: 14

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/10/2006 3:01:48 AM

rowech

Posts: 215
Joined: 6/9/2005
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Amen on that Amaroq. I would love to see differing GM philosophies used by the computer.

(in reply to Amaroq)

Post #: 15

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/10/2006 4:21:02 AM

DonBraswell

Posts: 384
Joined: 8/24/2005
From: Millbrook, Alabama
Status: offline

And different Manager philosophies also.
Don

(in reply to rowech)

Post #: 16

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/10/2006 5:04:09 AM

verizon32

Posts: 168
Joined: 5/23/2006
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I hope by the time Shaun puts out the latest patch to Puresim 2007 we won't need to do any house rules. Hopefully he will tweak all the XML that sittingduck suggested and tested out.

One house I think by work well for a challenge is to pick a team with the lowest payroll in the league. Will that make it challenging?

(in reply to DonBraswell)

Post #: 17

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/10/2006 6:03:01 AM

SittingDuck

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Joined: 9/1/2002
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Truthfully, I've never played a game with AI that I felt didn't require house rules.

(in reply to verizon32)

Post #: 18

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/11/2006 2:41:36 AM

PadresFan104

Posts: 1223
Joined: 8/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SittingDuck

<CONTRACT_MODIFIER extension_influence="1.85" greed_threshold="96"/>

That extension influence is up from 1.415 and really works. Do a flat 2.0 and watch very few stars get away. Also, I upped the greed threshold from 92.

SD - What exactly are these settings changing?

(in reply to SittingDuck)

Post #: 19

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/11/2006 2:56:42 AM

henry296

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Joined: 5/12/2006
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The first one affects how likely a player is to accept an extension offer. I used it in my most recent off season and very few stars are available.

(in reply to PadresFan104)

Post #: 20

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/11/2006 3:21:48 AM

SittingDuck

Posts: 1166
Joined: 9/1/2002
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So the way I am proceeding in a house rule for myself is this:

Before I hit offseason, I do my team's contract renegotiations. Therefore, I change that value to 1.6.

Then after I am done, I change it to 1.85 or 1.9 (that's what I'll run now, but not sure which), and then proceed into the offseason. The AI has the advantage here (and needs it, of course).

(in reply to henry296)

Post #: 21

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/11/2006 3:28:00 AM

PadresFan104

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Joined: 8/8/2005
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cool, thanks for the tip.

(in reply to SittingDuck)

Post #: 22

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/11/2006 4:05:55 AM

SittingDuck

Posts: 1166
Joined: 9/1/2002
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I've decided on 1.9 since Aaron, Mays and Mantle did not resign at 1.85. I'll see where the point is where they do.

(in reply to PadresFan104)

Post #: 23

RE: Is it time to break up the dynasty? - 8/11/2006 4:07:19 AM

SittingDuck

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Joined: 9/1/2002
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Aaron did at 1.9; Mantle and Mays did not.

Also, it isn't always absolute. One time they might resign, another they won't.

I'm trying 1.95 just to see the reaction.

(in reply to SittingDuck)

Post #: 24