Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions

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Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/24/2007 5:16:01 PM

Cavalry Corp

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From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
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If one send fighters on ground attack ....One would expect them if attacked by LRCAP to ditch the bombs and fight like fighters

No the do not they get all shot down even with high exp !!
BUT fighters on sweep apparently engage the enemy fighters then attack the airfield seems my case one should also be the case

Just lost 72 Zero like this in China

Michael

Post #: 1

RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/24/2007 5:21:53 PM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

If one send fighters on ground attack ....One would expect them if attacked by LRCAP to ditch the bombs and fight like fighters

No the do not they get all shot down even with high exp !!
BUT fighters on sweep apparently engage the enemy fighters then attack the airfield seems my case one should also be the case

Just lost 72 Zero like this in China

Michael

that�s how it goes. The fighters just fly on straight ahead in perfect formation to get shot down one after another. Must have been an oversight IMO, there�s no realistic explanation why they should not ditch their bombs and try to fight the attackers. Bad design...

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RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/24/2007 5:27:37 PM

niceguy2005

Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

If one send fighters on ground attack ....One would expect them if attacked by LRCAP to ditch the bombs and fight like fighters

No the do not they get all shot down even with high exp !!
BUT fighters on sweep apparently engage the enemy fighters then attack the airfield seems my case one should also be the case

Just lost 72 Zero like this in China

Michael

How big was the cap? What planes were you flying? What planes were in the cap?

IIRC on sweep fighters may strafe an airfield, but they don't attack with bombs.

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Post #: 3

RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/24/2007 6:01:09 PM

Cavalry Corp

Posts: 3107
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
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I had Zero and Tony about 120 all on ground attack - i lost abot 70
He had P40?
and P38 lightning ABOUT 50 I suppose

one lot was the AVG

He lost about 2

M

(in reply to niceguy2005)

Post #: 4

RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/24/2007 6:40:48 PM

Charbroiled

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Joined: 10/15/2004
From: Oregon
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Were any of these fighters on "escort"?

(in reply to Cavalry Corp)

Post #: 5

RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/24/2007 7:30:19 PM

niceguy2005

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I had Zero and Tony about 120 all on ground attack - i lost abot 70
He had P40?
and P38 lightning ABOUT 50 I suppose

one lot was the AVG

He lost about 2

M

So you had about 120 fighters on ground attack, presumably at low altitude. He had 50 fighters flying cap, you lost 70, he lost 2?

Hard to say what's going on. P-38s are death on Zeros and Tonys. But it sounds as though there weren't more than about 25 of them.

In RL, SOP would be for the commander to decide whether to drop the ordanance or not. That decision would be based on a lot of things, proximity to target, threat level, etc. If the units were seriously threatened its a good bet they would drop their bombs and fight, or run.

Personally what I would do is get another group of fighters together and sweep the target first

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RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/24/2007 7:31:13 PM

niceguy2005

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From: Super secret hidden base
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

Were any of these fighters on "escort"?

This would also be SOP, as well as reconning and sweeping the target ahead of time.

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Post #: 7

RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/24/2007 8:15:48 PM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

Were any of these fighters on "escort"?

This would also be SOP, as well as reconning and sweeping the target ahead of time.

The game doesn't model SOP or doctrine well (or at all!!!)...

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Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to niceguy2005)

Post #: 8

RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/24/2007 8:32:27 PM

spence

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Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
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Even if they ditched the bombs and turned to fight the fighter(bombers) wouldn't be aerodynamically as clean as fighters not rigged for bombs and their performance as fighters would be degraded. Assuming the Allied fighters got the bounce and ripped the formation of fighter(bombers) to pieces on the first pass disorganization/lack of coordination amongst the survivors might well account for the disparity as initial "zoom and boomers" concentrated on isolated fragments of the original formation. The real lesson is "Don't base your plan on perceived enemy intentions, base it on enemy capabilities."

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 9

RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/24/2007 8:44:57 PM

niceguy2005

Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

Were any of these fighters on "escort"?

This would also be SOP, as well as reconning and sweeping the target ahead of time.

The game doesn't model SOP or doctrine well (or at all!!!)...

I think the point here would be its up to the commander to plan his missions well. I don't know the details in this particular situation, but flying a massive attack into the teeth of the enemy cap without escort is not really a good idea.

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Post #: 10

RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/25/2007 11:44:23 AM

castor troy

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From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Even if they ditched the bombs and turned to fight the fighter(bombers) wouldn't be aerodynamically as clean as fighters not rigged for bombs and their performance as fighters would be degraded. Assuming the Allied fighters got the bounce and ripped the formation of fighter(bombers) to pieces on the first pass disorganization/lack of coordination amongst the survivors might well account for the disparity as initial "zoom and boomers" concentrated on isolated fragments of the original formation. The real lesson is "Don't base your plan on perceived enemy intentions, base it on enemy capabilities."

but it would 100% not be the same in real life as it is in WITP when the fighter(bombers) just keep flying straight ahead in formation which results in e.g. 72 out of 72 shot down one after another without even trying to fight. Even if they (the attacker) would have the bounce, thinking that during that first bounce all the fighter (bombers) would be shot down is a bit too "wide thinking" for me.

If you see 20 fighters taking down 72 fighter(bombers) because the game treats them as bombers (without any defensive armament) then it is at least strange...

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Post #: 11

RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/25/2007 7:24:44 PM

Cavalry Corp

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From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
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I had no escorts ( MISTAKE ) and I did not know he was there they were LRCAP

M

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Post #: 12

RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/25/2007 10:13:48 PM

Miller

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From: Ashington, England.
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I am suffering the same in my game. The simple solution is to make sure low exp pilots do the ground attack whilst high exp ones do the escorting.

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RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/25/2007 11:12:25 PM

dtravel

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Joined: 7/7/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Even if they ditched the bombs and turned to fight the fighter(bombers) wouldn't be aerodynamically as clean as fighters not rigged for bombs and their performance as fighters would be degraded. Assuming the Allied fighters got the bounce and ripped the formation of fighter(bombers) to pieces on the first pass disorganization/lack of coordination amongst the survivors might well account for the disparity as initial "zoom and boomers" concentrated on isolated fragments of the original formation. The real lesson is "Don't base your plan on perceived enemy intentions, base it on enemy capabilities."

but it would 100% not be the same in real life as it is in WITP when the fighter(bombers) just keep flying straight ahead in formation which results in e.g. 72 out of 72 shot down one after another without even trying to fight. Even if they (the attacker) would have the bounce, thinking that during that first bounce all the fighter (bombers) would be shot down is a bit too "wide thinking" for me.

If you see 20 fighters taking down 72 fighter(bombers) because the game treats them as bombers (without any defensive armament) then it is at least strange...

But that is how the program was written. Anything that will attack the ground or ships is treated as a "bomber" and fights as one, regardless of what plane type the unit screen lists it as.

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This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to castor troy)

Post #: 14

RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/25/2007 11:42:44 PM

niceguy2005

Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

I am suffering the same in my game. The simple solution is to make sure low exp pilots do the ground attack whilst high exp ones do the escorting.

Although Cavalry's results do seem very extreme, I think Miller's solution will help a lot. In one of my PBEMs my opponent has been bombing me silly in China and some other areas despite P-38s flow by very good pilots. He successfully protects his bobmers by sending in a very strong escort, about twice as many planes as I have on CAP. My fighters win the battle with his fighters usually, but fail to score many kills with his bombers. I suspect one day he will run out of good fighter pilots but it seems to have worked so far.

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RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/26/2007 1:35:47 AM

RUPD3658

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From: East Brunswick, NJ
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I had a bunch of low exp Tonys bounce some high exp P-38s that were on a port attack. The Tonys ripped through the P-38s with minimal losses.

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RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/26/2007 12:13:05 PM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Even if they ditched the bombs and turned to fight the fighter(bombers) wouldn't be aerodynamically as clean as fighters not rigged for bombs and their performance as fighters would be degraded. Assuming the Allied fighters got the bounce and ripped the formation of fighter(bombers) to pieces on the first pass disorganization/lack of coordination amongst the survivors might well account for the disparity as initial "zoom and boomers" concentrated on isolated fragments of the original formation. The real lesson is "Don't base your plan on perceived enemy intentions, base it on enemy capabilities."

but it would 100% not be the same in real life as it is in WITP when the fighter(bombers) just keep flying straight ahead in formation which results in e.g. 72 out of 72 shot down one after another without even trying to fight. Even if they (the attacker) would have the bounce, thinking that during that first bounce all the fighter (bombers) would be shot down is a bit too "wide thinking" for me.

If you see 20 fighters taking down 72 fighter(bombers) because the game treats them as bombers (without any defensive armament) then it is at least strange...

But that is how the program was written. Anything that will attack the ground or ships is treated as a "bomber" and fights as one, regardless of what plane type the unit screen lists it as.

I know!

It still makes no sense to me... hopefully it doesn�t make sense to you either...

_____________________________

(in reply to dtravel)

Post #: 17

RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/26/2007 10:20:26 PM

dtravel

Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Even if they ditched the bombs and turned to fight the fighter(bombers) wouldn't be aerodynamically as clean as fighters not rigged for bombs and their performance as fighters would be degraded. Assuming the Allied fighters got the bounce and ripped the formation of fighter(bombers) to pieces on the first pass disorganization/lack of coordination amongst the survivors might well account for the disparity as initial "zoom and boomers" concentrated on isolated fragments of the original formation. The real lesson is "Don't base your plan on perceived enemy intentions, base it on enemy capabilities."

but it would 100% not be the same in real life as it is in WITP when the fighter(bombers) just keep flying straight ahead in formation which results in e.g. 72 out of 72 shot down one after another without even trying to fight. Even if they (the attacker) would have the bounce, thinking that during that first bounce all the fighter (bombers) would be shot down is a bit too "wide thinking" for me.

If you see 20 fighters taking down 72 fighter(bombers) because the game treats them as bombers (without any defensive armament) then it is at least strange...

But that is how the program was written. Anything that will attack the ground or ships is treated as a "bomber" and fights as one, regardless of what plane type the unit screen lists it as.

I know! It still makes no sense to me... hopefully it doesn�t make sense to you either...

Hi, we've obviously never met before. I'm Dtravel, one of the snarky, smartass, PITA to the developer posters who continuely flames them. You are?

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to castor troy)

Post #: 18

RE: Fighters attacked by LRCAP on Ground attack missions - 7/26/2007 11:19:08 PM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Even if they ditched the bombs and turned to fight the fighter(bombers) wouldn't be aerodynamically as clean as fighters not rigged for bombs and their performance as fighters would be degraded. Assuming the Allied fighters got the bounce and ripped the formation of fighter(bombers) to pieces on the first pass disorganization/lack of coordination amongst the survivors might well account for the disparity as initial "zoom and boomers" concentrated on isolated fragments of the original formation. The real lesson is "Don't base your plan on perceived enemy intentions, base it on enemy capabilities."

but it would 100% not be the same in real life as it is in WITP when the fighter(bombers) just keep flying straight ahead in formation which results in e.g. 72 out of 72 shot down one after another without even trying to fight. Even if they (the attacker) would have the bounce, thinking that during that first bounce all the fighter (bombers) would be shot down is a bit too "wide thinking" for me.

If you see 20 fighters taking down 72 fighter(bombers) because the game treats them as bombers (without any defensive armament) then it is at least strange...

But that is how the program was written. Anything that will attack the ground or ships is treated as a "bomber" and fights as one, regardless of what plane type the unit screen lists it as.

I know! It still makes no sense to me... hopefully it doesn�t make sense to you either...

Hi, we've obviously never met before. I'm Dtravel, one of the snarky, smartass, PITA to the developer posters who continuely flames them. You are?

I�m the one who was more than once asked if I�m a Ron S. alias!

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Post #: 19

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