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Sub Transport not loading supplies - 5/5/2007 8:33:25 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Gentlemen, I apologise in advance if this particular manifestation of a sub transport failing to load supply has been previously identified/addressed but I do not recall seeing it in previous discussions regarding sub transport loading bugs.

On the last 2 occasions when my sub transport has left port without loading supplies, upon examination the following day I have noted that the TF had auto converted itself to a sub patrol and was carrying 100% torpedoes (and obviously no supply).

Details are as follows:

(A) Game Parameters

* Version 1.5 (yes I know I will update when this game ends and maybe this particular manifestation has been addressed in later patches)
* Allies = Human
* Japan = AI
* Difficulty = Hard
* Turns = 1 day
* Sub Doctrine = Off for both Allies/Japan
* Sub control = Human
* Game Date = May 1942
* Nothing of the Allies is under computer control ie no auto convoy, no continuous supply convoys, no region under computer control nada, zilch

(B) Task Force Details

* US Navy
* Created at Balikpapan which is under ABDA control
* 14 S class submarines, all with sys damage of <10, all with speed of 13
* Human control
* Speed = Mission
* Unload Cargo selected
* TF mission was to run supply from Balikpapan to Bataan

(C) TF Commander Details

* TF Commander was blank (not checked on creation but definitely blank the following day when TF investigated to confirm it had auto converted to patrol)
* Rank = WO
* Leadership = 0
* Inspiration = 0

From this a few observations strike me as possible leads to squash the sub transport non supply load bug.

1. If the flagship (hence auto generated TF commander) does not have an assigned individual commander
2. As a result of #1, the TF has no leadership or inspiration and the rank is the generic WO
3. As a result of #1/#2, the TF auto converts itself to a sub patrol
4. As a sub patrol it loads up 100% of all torpedo tubes instead of supply
5. Hence the problem is not so much a sticky TF number slot as the change of TF mission

Hope this is of some value.

Alfred
Post #: 1
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 5/5/2007 9:26:35 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I notice the subs were S class.  Those were very small boats with very small cargo capacity.  I don't believe they will work in sub transport TFs.  It would be nice if the game told you, but it doesn't.

Bill


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(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 2
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 5/5/2007 4:46:06 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Wdolson,

In version 1.5, I have run many all S class subs in transport TF and they do transport supplies, just in smaller quantities than do fleet subs.

My speculation is that the lack of a named TF commander could be a factor in auto converting the TF into a sub patrol which promptly did fully load, unfortunately torpedoes instead of supplies.  I should also mentioned that on these last two occasions I manually changed the TF mission back to sub transport before they arrived at Bataan and experienced no difficulties in evacuating units from Bataan back to Balikpapan.

Alfred

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Post #: 3
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 5/6/2007 4:48:47 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		This is an old bug, dating from 1.21 at least, reported many times but "not replicable" by the devs (or at least some of them) - there have been 2 "recent" threads on this, i'll see if i can find them...

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Post #: 4
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 5/6/2007 4:56:00 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

This is an old bug, dating from 1.21 at least, reported many times but "not replicable" by the devs (or at least some of them) - there have been 2 "recent" threads on this, i'll see if i can find them...


OK here they are - first is called
"Sub transport won't load supply" (sound familiar?? )
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1326513

More extensive one is:
"Sub/seaplane transport"
starting at
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1321894

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 5/6/2007 4:57:14 PM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 5/6/2007 5:12:13 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

This is an old bug, dating from 1.21 at least, reported many times but "not replicable" by the devs (or at least some of them) - there have been 2 "recent" threads on this, i'll see if i can find them...


OK here they are - first is called
"Sub transport won't load supply" (sound familiar?? )
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1326513

More extensive one is:
"Sub/seaplane transport"
starting at
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1321894


It is "replicable" by me! In a recent game with Nik, in a rare chance for me to play the Allies, I was unable to load any supply on USN subs despite several attempts. Strange I've never had a problem (and still don't) loading supply on IJN subs.





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Post #: 6
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 5/6/2007 8:05:50 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

This is an old bug, dating from 1.21 at least, reported many times but "not replicable" by the devs (or at least some of them) - there have been 2 "recent" threads on this, i'll see if i can find them...


OK here they are - first is called
"Sub transport won't load supply" (sound familiar?? )
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1326513

More extensive one is:
"Sub/seaplane transport"
starting at
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1321894


It is "replicable" by me! In a recent game with Nik, in a rare chance for me to play the Allies, I was unable to load any supply on USN subs despite several attempts. Strange I've never had a problem (and still don't) loading supply on IJN subs.




Hoo hah!! The first dev/mod to replicate it!! Kudos!!!

So, what are the chances of getting it fixed???

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 7
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 5/6/2007 10:38:55 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Greater than zero!



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Post #: 8
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 5/6/2007 10:57:14 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Greater than zero!




Uh... i think that's an improvement...

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Post #: 9
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 5/6/2007 11:02:03 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		I'm not sure exactly when it stopped working but I'm pretty sure it worked in 1.7.9.5/1.8.0.0 because my PBEMs were using those at the time and my Allied opponents were loading supply on subs. I could see the messages every few turns

S-237 loading supplies
S-238 loading supplies
...

Not sure why IGHQ should get messages about Allied subs loading supplies but it was happening. So I'm guessin' it was somewhere in 1.8.0.1 or 1.8.0.2 when it stopped workin'.

== But yes, as you suspected, greater than zero is better than zero, at least when it comes to probabilities of things happening that are good.



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Post #: 10
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 5/6/2007 11:03:10 PM   
FAdmiral


Posts: 378
Joined: 12/20/2002
From: Atlanta,GA, USA
Status: offline 		I tried to load a few troops on the US subs too but that didn't work either....

JIM

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 11
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 5/6/2007 11:05:28 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

I'm not sure exactly when it stopped working but I'm pretty sure it worked in 1.7.9.5/1.8.0.0 because my PBEMs were using those at the time and my Allied opponents were loading supply on subs. I could see the messages every few turns

S-237 loading supplies
S-238 loading supplies
...

Not sure why IGHQ should get messages about Allied subs loading supplies but it was happening. So I'm guessin' it was somewhere in 1.8.0.1 or 1.8.0.2 when it stopped workin'.

== But yes, as you suspected, greater than zero is better than zero, at least when it comes to probabilities of things happening that are good.




Well, as i mentioned, it does NOT seem to hit everyone... the conversations on the forum seem to degenerate into "What are you doing wrong? It works fine for me!"

And in my case it has happened ever since i had the game (version 1.2 or so.)

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 12
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 5/6/2007 11:09:10 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		I'll see if I can get Xargun to do some testing on this. In my game with Nik I tried several subs, several times, several bases and never got anybody to load supplies (when I was playing Allies). When we switched sides, all my Japanese subs loaded supply just fine. My current games have house rules against carrying troops on subs, so I haven't even tried that in ages. But we'll try both and see what we see.



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Post #: 13
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 5/7/2007 9:51:37 PM   
qgaliana

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		Yay! Back on someones radar.

John, I sent Xargun some saves (before and after attempting to load) way back when I started the thread in the support forum. He said he had forwarded them. Are they still floating about somewhere? I think I still have them at home.

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 14
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 5/7/2007 11:00:42 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Not sure we need them, if my experiences are valid then it should be easy to reproduce. Will post if we can validate the repeatability (or not).



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Post #: 15
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 5/8/2007 7:41:32 PM   
qgaliana

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		Ok - PM me if necessary

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Post #: 16
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 10/2/2007 11:07:10 PM   
DaveB


Posts: 151
Joined: 8/4/2003
From: Forres Scotland
Status: offline 		At last! I found a thread on this (I knew I'd seen it somewhere)....
Playing Big B mod, I've been evacuating base forces from Cebu etc to Morotai via a couple of sub transports groups, and it all went fine until about mid June 1942 when a group was shifted back to Manila to run supplies in from some of the nearby abandoned bases like San Jose. (Playing US, if anyone hadn't guessed by now, mixed 'S' boats and larger fleet boats like Sculpin). After one successful run San Jose to Manila all sub transport fails to load.

I've had a small group of SS running Wake to Guam, that too stopped loading supplies around the same time in game. Sub transport definitely worked fine for a month or so (game time) at least before suddenly turning off across the map - when it stopped working I had 4 sub groups on the go running supplies into the PI and Guam.

It 'feels' rather like there was perhaps a total amount of supply/transport allowed, and having shifted a few thousand supply and troops via this method I hit the limit and it stopped. Could it be either time/date related or due to there being some finite amount of supply (a counter not resetting or failing to roll over?)

Please fix it, my PI troops brought the projector into the defence perimeter but left most of the movies on Cebu - Generals Mac Arthur and Homma have both complained that watching 'Road to Zanzibar' every night is beginning to affect the morale of both sets of troops.
Dave

< Message edited by DaveB -- 10/2/2007 11:10:05 PM >

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Post #: 17
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 10/6/2007 3:44:22 AM   
sanch

 

Posts: 421
Joined: 10/30/2004
Status: offline 		In my Allies vs AI, I've been feeding Manila from Soerbaja via subs for about a year now. The problem is intermittent (sometimes they load, sometimes they don't) and has been around since at least 1.6, and it still exists in latest.

I've learned to check next day, and if no supplies on board, turn them right back into port.

(in reply to DaveB)
Post #: 18
RE: Sub Transport not loading supplies - 10/8/2007 11:44:49 PM   
DaveB


Posts: 151
Joined: 8/4/2003
From: Forres Scotland
Status: offline 		I've been testing this (US) from around the PI and also Wake to Guam. Very unreliable loading, TF's seem to get 'stuck' on failing to load - disbanding then forming a new TF sometimes then allows the new TF to load, but sometimes doesn't. I've not observed any particular common theme in which ones load, which don't. Making a new TF up ein a port that hasn't been used for sub supply, using boats that haven't been running supplies seems to stand a much better chance of carrying supplies, but these too seem to fail to load after a trip or two. An example - sub transport TFs running between Morotai and Manila, and Darwin-Manila, stop working - a new TF of K boats from Soerabaya loads happily and runs into Manila.
Once a TF fails to load it seems to have very little chance of regaining the transport ability, but it does occasionally happen.
REALLY annoying, as I've got the PI nicely set up holding the Japanese back relatively effortlessly, but Japanese airpower makes it a one way trip for surface transport.

(in reply to sanch)
Post #: 19
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