A Test "Talvisota" Battle

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A Test "Talvisota" Battle - 1/23/2007 1:31:32 AM

KG Erwin

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So, I tried starting out a Finnish vs Russian generated campaign. January 1940. Delay mission.

For the Finns, I bought a standard infantry battalion: three rifle companies and an MG company, along with an engineer section, a Jaeger platoon, four 81mm mortars, and a couple of 37mm ATG. Offboard support is two battalions of 122s.

Once again, I'm assaulted by a horde of tanks, with minimal infantry support. It's just obscene. Check out this screenshot:

I should've known better than to spread out the battalion so thinly. The Russkies simply concentrate two spearheads coming straight down the roads. The result is a foregone conclusion. Without any armor support whatsoever, and nothing more than Molotovs and a few satchel charges, along with the 37mm "door-knockers", I'm not delaying them at all.

Without fiddling with the Russian AI force selections, I see little hope of doing much with this format.

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< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 11/6/2007 12:31:02 AM >

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 1:37:28 AM

Alby

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maybe the infantry is walking behind the tanks and just aint got there yet??

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 1:42:45 AM

Goblin

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This isn't the jungle, KG. You troops should not be out in the open. Smoke, reverse slopes, and trees are your friends. You would eat those tanks for breakfast if you were in/under cover.

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 1:44:53 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

maybe the infantry is walking behind the tanks and just aint got there yet??

Makes no difference, Alby. I'm getting "blitzed", big time. Not something I'm accustomed to dealing with. I'll run the scenario editor and check out what the Russians bought.

My whole core force cost less than 1600 points, plus approx 500 points in offboard support.

The Russians bought eight rifle platoons, plus two platoons of T-28, three platoons of BT-2, two platoons of T-18, three platoons of T-26, and two platoons of BT-7. I'd call that a little tank-heavy, wouldn't you?

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 1/23/2007 2:06:55 AM >

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 1:48:05 AM

Alby

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Goblin has a point , perhaps you are to used to fighting in the jungle....

geez alot of "jungle" songs are coming to mind...jungle boogie, jungle love, arrrgg make it stop!!!

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 1:59:45 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

�Goblin has a point , perhaps you are to used to fighting in the jungle....

geez alot of "jungle" songs are coming to mind...jungle boogie, jungle love, arrrgg make it stop!!!

Well, he DOES have a point, but a ratio of 12:8 in tank/infantry platoons?

As for jungle songs, I think I prefer GnR's "Welcome to the Jungle", or Bruce's "Jungleland".

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 2:06:28 AM

Alby

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yes I prefer those too, just those others came to mind for some reason....i think i am losing it...

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 2:08:49 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

This isn't the jungle, KG. You troops should not be out in the open. Smoke, reverse slopes, and trees are your friends. You would eat those tanks for breakfast if you were in/under cover.

Goblin

Yeah, putting those guys on open hilltops was NOT a good idea. I know, now: I should've set up behind the VHs, hiding in the forests.

I apologize to my Finnish friends here. I'm still learning their capabilities --- in the defense, these guys are made for stealth and ambushes.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 1/23/2007 2:25:01 AM >

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 3:06:19 AM

Korpraali V

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As you are not a Finn, there's no need for apologies

As you've already noted, there's huge difference in how you use your units and what's the base philosophy of defence/delay. Actually Finns had two different ones depending on the place you were. In Ishtmus of Karelia the philosophy was some WWI kind of - on both sides, Finns being defender and Soviets being attacker all the time excluding small counterattacks. The forestry area and long distances from north of lake Laatokka/Ladoga until Petsamo allowed more movage of troops. That was well used.

Soviets are suffering historically correct problems their combined arms tactics being in zero level. Artillery, tanks and infantry come separate masses that can't support each others.

One thing is to have reserves on skis. Other thing is that when outnumbered that badly keep only some spotters on flanks. Forests will form another battalion for you, use that well. Never stay in the open if you can avoid it. Strike their flanks.

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 4:26:46 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Korpraali V

As you are not a Finn, there's no need for apologies�

As you've already noted, there's huge difference in how you use your units and what's the base philosophy of defence/delay. Actually Finns had two different ones depending on the place you were. In Ishtmus of Karelia the philosophy was some WWI kind of - on both sides, Finns being defender and Soviets being attacker all the time excluding small counterattacks. The forestry area and long distances from north of lake Laatokka/Ladoga until Petsamo allowed more movage of troops. That was well used.

Soviets are suffering historically correct problems their combined arms tactics being in zero level. Artillery, tanks and infantry come separate masses that can't support each others.

One thing is to have reserves on skis. Other thing is that when outnumbered that badly keep only some spotters on flanks. Forests will form another battalion for you, use that well. Never stay in the open if you can avoid it. Strike their flanks.

How about my basic core force structure? Seem appropriate for the time period? I noted that AT rifles were rare in 1939, as were AT guns, so the tank-killers become the infantry themselves. No tanks at all, except maybe as dug-in static defenses.

With their superb rifles, the Finns are long-distance infantry killers, so that's not a problem. The old MGs are good, too.

I try to keep my forces historical, BUT, in this case I can see the need to augment this battlegroup with more mobile reserves (cavalry) and maybe a few more ATGs or ATRs.

The one thing I definitely see as a weakness in the '39 Finns is the platoons basically being just two rifle squads augmented by two LMG squads. I see that they need to be stacked together in most cases. So, in essence, the company is eight rifle squads backed up by eight LMG squads.

I have to wonder about the Jaeger platoon. I regard this as the battalion reserve, along with the engineer section. Now, if I add a platoon of cavalry, I see the nucleus of a mobile counterstrike force, a sort of raider group. Maybe later I could convert the cavalry into Ski Troops. The upgrade path isn't too problematic, as I can make the LMG squads full rifle squads. I will still have no armor, and a severe shortage of dedicated AT weapons.

Being spoiled by the Americans' use of trucks and jeeps, it seems so strange to have to rely on horse-drawn wagons for my mortars.

I'm gonna try it again, but it is indeed a challenge.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 1/23/2007 4:44:14 AM >

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 5:11:31 AM

KG Erwin

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Just for fun, here's my Finnish commander's name : I will be Lt Col Laakso Erwin. Glenn = glen = valley = laakso. That's the closest I could get with the available online translators.

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 5:13:24 AM

vahauser

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Erwin,

What version of the rules are you using?

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 5:45:33 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Erwin,

What version of the rules are you using?

Rules? What rules? This is 8.403, with the Enhanced OOBs, no special rules imposed other than what I set in my preferences. The way I always play -- all settings ON with the exceptions of mines and command control. Arty set at 120% for soft and hard targets. Basic stuff.

The problem is in my tactics -- I realize that. For the Finns, I have to adopt a different mind-set. On delay/defense, they should play guerrilla -style. No pitched battles. Whittle-down the b*stards. If the opportunity permits, hit them with that counterstrike force, but don't be too ambitious.

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 1:16:03 PM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

On delay/defense, they should play guerrilla -style. No pitched battles.

Actually finns had trenche lines, some armored pillboxes and even light fortresses (Miljoonalinnake of Summa). Guerrilla actions were used anyway on regular basis and finns were masters with surrounding enemy forces and cutting supply lines (can vehicles run out of fuel in SPWAW?). Guerrilla actions ranged from one night trips to several week long travels to railway of Murmansk and large supply depots. In winter skis were used for allkind guerrilla action. To my knowledge cavalry (horseback riding) was never used by finns in military action, though horses were often dragging cannons and other heavy equipment but trucks were available too.

What comes to trucks, they were sometimes used in guerrilla actions too. There were some minor roads and maybe other ploughed ways what soviets were unavare about, and using trucks on those finns could quickly move Maxims and other heavy weapons around to make flanking maneuvers and set up ambushes for retreating enemy forces. Those things REALLY happened in Winter War and not just in novels & comic strips.

In Old Steel Panthers there are two scenarios which effectively demonstrate different kind of tactics used by finns. First one, The Raate Road is typical front line engagement where finns are defending. In other scenario finns ambush soviets on the road and there are finnish trucks nearby which suggests that finnish troops were moved by them. I've gone through list of SPWAW scenarios and I didn't find either of those

< Message edited by Matti Kuokkanen -- 1/24/2007 12:13:21 PM >

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 3:46:15 PM

vahauser

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Erwin,

I just took a look at the Finns in 1939 in Enhanced FV.1. Finns have superior troop quality across the board compared to the Soviets. From what I could see, seems like ski jagers and inf-AT and HMG should be able to cause serious problems for the Soviets. Toss in a few mortars and a few Vickers light tanks and some sledges for transport and I think you can outmaneuver and outflank the bad guys. The idea of hit-and-run guerilla tactics seem perfect for this kind of Finnish force.

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 4:58:58 PM

Goblin

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KG,

Just remember that ski infantry cannot assault tanks!!

Goblin

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 5:27:18 PM

Alby

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

KG,

Just remember that ski infantry cannot assault tanks!!

Goblin

That needs a little clarifying
If issued an AT weapon, they will fire the AT weapon at a tank, during the AI turn your ski troops will not "close assault" enemy armor, if say a Tank runs into them, but they will fire their weapons in a normal manner, including AT weapons. Its just that the "close Assault" routine wont happen.
so you wont see this type message
"ski troops assaulting T34 with XXX"

< Message edited by Alby -- 1/23/2007 5:38:14 PM >

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 6:03:30 PM

vahauser

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Alby,

That actually works better in this particular case because the ski troops will likely have just as good a chance to hit with their molotov as they would have as a close assault. In fact, in this case it is even better for the ski troops because they will not suffer tank panic or go pinned from a failed close assault which means that they can attack with their molotovs several times. Very deadly. In this case.

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 9:18:50 PM

Korpraali V

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Just for fun, here's my Finnish commander's name : I will be Lt Col Laakso Erwin. Glenn = glen = valley = laakso. That's the closest I could get with the available online translators.

Laakso is regular Finnish last name. So, everstiluutnantti Erwin Laakso could be a good choise

Your core force structure seems to be quite historical:
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/FORMATIONS3.htm

Most AT-guns and AT-rifles were in Ishtmus of Karelia. Not many north from lake Laatokka. Few dug-in tanks were used in Ishtmus area. To choise your style you need to decide where you are: in Ishtmus of Karelia or somewhere between Laatokka and Ice Sea. Soviet tactic will remain the same: WWI style counting on numbers. Note the effect of officer purges where several company commanders ended up leading regiments and even more. No training and no experience to do their job.

At that time Finns lacked weapons so every platoon had two LMGs and two SMGs, which were at first seen as squad support weapons as LMGs. Later most of the Company's SMGs were collected to units that either spearheaded counterattacks (Ishtmus) or cut enemy lines (north). Every weapon captured were taken to own use. Mostly that meant Degtjarev LMGs, Tokarev and Simonov automatic rifles. That's why so many Finnish units have DP LMGs. Summer 1944 there were two Degtjarevs per one Lahti-Saloranta LMG. Own spare part production and maintenance procedures were organised for it too.

Finnish cavalry had its own formations. They never fought on horses, but always dismounted. Horse was the best friend of Finnish fighter, more usable and reliable than truck in forestry and hilly area.

About the areas:

Ishtmus of Karelia: Static defence lines with some bunkers and pillboxes. Soviets attacking with zero level co-operation between armours, infantry and artillery. From February 1940 on co-operation got better. Tanks got through the lines many times but were destroyed by at-teams. Without infantry support they were blind, especially when night fell (imagine yourself there inside a tin can with enemies all around just waiting for a chance...). Infantry sometimes got to first trenches because they just were too many. Small counterattacks by minimal troops repulsed them back.

From Laatokka to Petsamo (Ice Sea): Defencelines that usually could fall back without big risks. Small troops operating enemy rear cutting supply lines, encirceling, attacking flanks. Soviets being tied to few roads and just pushing forward. Manouvre is the key here. Lots of ski troops. After the enemy is stopped, Finnish activity begins in full scale. Small troops attack from everywhere and if they encounter too tight resistance they will withdraw and attack later again.

Note that Ski troops haven't got any special status to Finns. Everybody can ski. It's just a matter of who will be ordered to keep the lines and who will be ordered to flank the enemy.

Finnish Vickers tanks were used only once, with very low success. Infantry is the thing.

< Message edited by Korpraali V -- 1/23/2007 9:32:03 PM >

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 9:36:08 PM

Alby

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Can you ski???

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/23/2007 9:40:51 PM

Korpraali V

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

Can you ski???

Can you say "Alamo" with Texasian accent?

< Message edited by Korpraali V -- 1/23/2007 9:52:44 PM >

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/24/2007 12:03:46 AM

FlashfyreSP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Korpraali V

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

Can you ski???

Can you say "Alamo" with Texasian accent?

He's got ya there!

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/24/2007 12:32:35 AM

Alby

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except he misspelled 'Texian'

LOL

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/24/2007 12:50:29 AM

FlashfyreSP

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I think he meant the Chinese who fought next to Davy Crockett....Hop Sing and Chow Lu.

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/24/2007 12:51:17 AM

Alby

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

I think he meant the Chinese who fought next to Davy Crockett....Hop Sing and Chow Lu.

And its "David" Crockett

< Message edited by Alby -- 1/24/2007 1:02:54 AM >

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/24/2007 12:56:20 AM

KG Erwin

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Time for a singalong:

"Born on a mountain top in Tennessee
greenest state in the land of the free
raised in the woods so he knew ev'ry tree
kilt him a b'ar when he was only three
Davy, Davy Crockett, king of the wild frontier!"

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/24/2007 1:02:25 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Korpraali V

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Just for fun, here's my Finnish commander's name : I will be Lt Col Laakso Erwin. Glenn = glen = valley = laakso. That's the closest I could get with the available online translators.

Laakso is regular Finnish last name. So, everstiluutnantti Erwin Laakso could be a good choise

OK, it's Lt Col Erwin Laakso, then. I like it.

Of course, now I'll have to wait until the "SPWaW Enhanced Final Definitive Complete that's-all-folks" OOB set is released.

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/24/2007 1:27:10 AM

Alby

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RE: A Test "Winter War" Battle - 1/24/2007 2:08:45 AM

KG Erwin

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I also decided which battalion my force will be: II/JR17/6th Division, composed of the 4th, 5th and 6th Companies.

Historical note: in January 1940, to confuse Soviet intelligence (and no doubt, students of the war), the 6th Div was redesignated the 3rd Div, and JR17 became JR7.