Unit Nameing

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Unit Nameing - 12/15/2007 8:07:33 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
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getting ready to do my reseach/thoughts on the oddballs

(forgive me, this is how I think, I have the info I need in my head, but until I can express it, I can not get it to form into the area that I need to understand what it is I want to do, so I tend to talk and talk, until it looks like I am going in circles, but it clears up what I am thinking about,so, if you are not interested in what I am circling on about, skip this)

the SG type units

they did fight air to air, but mainly should be seen as Jabos

in the past, some have said they shouldn't be in the game, while others think they belong as they did end up fighting

my view on that, is the GE side is going to need those 190 F's and G's, so I plan on leaving them in (we have worked on the rules, and the rules for the Jabos are in place, to keep Jabos as Jabos and fighters as fighters)

the hassle I have right now, is what to call them (of course, I want to call them what they should be called, that is a no brainer) the issue (hmmm, I think I have picked up a new favorite word) is
we have Sch.G, we have SKG and we have SG

which all in all, no hassle, II/SKG 10 is easy and it is in place at the start of the battle

but, II/SKG 10 becomes, II/SG 4

the big thing I do want to avoid, is having the same unit in the game, just under a different name

(that is why, some of the late war units, I have not added, as they are mainly, just a early unit, renamed, and they did a lot of that, it makes your head spin trying to follow)

okay, long story short (yea right, I just getting started)

we got Gruppens of SKG 10, and we got Staffels of SG 4, I can kill off the Staffels, move the pilots that I have found for those staffels and place them on delay into the Gruppens, and all is still with in reason, correct

the hassle I am mulling over, is should I keep the SKG name, or should I replace it with it's later on name of SG ?

in Aug of 43, parts of SKG 10 were in the MED and others were in France, in Oct, II and III SKG 10 become II and III SG 4

(ahhhhh, it gets worse, about the time SG 4 is formed, SG 10 is also formed, of course, II and III SKG 10 become SG 4, but Stab and IV SKG 10 become SG 10)

ahhh my head hurts

Stab SKG 10 becomes SG 10
1,2,3 Sch/G 2 becomes I/SG 10
IV/SKG 10 becomes II/SG 10
4,5,6 St.G 77 becomes III/SG 10

17 Gruppen of Schlachtgeschwader SG 1,2,3,4,10 and 77
1 independent Gruppen, I/SG 1
1 anti-tank Gruppen, IV/SG 9
4 anti-tank Staffels, 10(pz)/SG 1,2,3,77

good part, is most are on the Eastern Front, so do not come into play (just adding to the story to keep the data correct)

OH COME On, I/SKG 10 becomes III/KG 51

hehe, believe it or not, it is working

any ideas or thoughts, besides the state of mind I must be in

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RE: Unit Nameing - 12/15/2007 8:13:51 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline

the big thing I do want to avoid, is having the same unit in the game, just under a different name

(that is why, some of the late war units, I have not added, as they are mainly, just a early unit, renamed, and they did a lot of that, it makes your head spin trying to follow)

this is reason why, we will have Stab/JG 7, I/JG 7, II/JG 7, Kommando Nowotny (instead of III/JG 7) and JV 44 instead of IV/JG 7 (of course JV 44 as IV/JG 7 is nitpicking, as it was changed in name only and almost on the last day of the war)

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RE: Unit Nameing - 12/15/2007 8:24:30 PM

wernerpruckner

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Schlachtgeschwader 1

II./Schlacht)/LG 2 ( for a long time the only Schlacht unit ) => 1/42 => I./Schlachtgeschwader 1
at the same time II./SchG 1 was formed at Lippstadt

18.October 43 - SchG 1 is disbanded

following units were formed from the SchG 1:

Stab => Stab/ IV.(Pz)/SG 9 and Stab/NSG 3, Stab/NSG 4, Stab/NSG 5, Stab/NSG 6 and Stab/NSG 7
I.Gruppe => I./SG 77
II.Gruppe => II./SG 2

the 5.Staffel was in Africa as 8.(Pz)/SG 2 ( Dec 42 - )

A/C used:
at the beginning: Hs 123
BoB: Me 109
Balkan: 1x Staffel Hs 123 and 2xStaffel Me 109
Eastern Front: 3xStaffel Me 109 and 1xStaffel Hs 123,......II.Gruppe uses the first Hs 129
end of 42: Fw 190 becomes the main A/C....each Gruppe 3xStaffel Fw 190 and 1x Staffel Hs 129

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RE: Unit Nameing - 12/15/2007 9:23:09 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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I keeping the NSGs out, also, with in scope of the game, the (pz) don't belong

plus as you already know, II.(Schl)/LG 2 is already in (had to wait for them to drop the Hs 123s for the 109 (odd that they then later, picked up the 123s)

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RE: Unit Nameing - 12/15/2007 9:54:11 PM

von Shagmeister

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From: Dromahane, Ireland
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Have the names as they were on 17Aug43 (ie SKG and Sch.G.) SG designation wasn't adopted until 18Oct43. Any later arriving units use the designation they had at the time they turn up.

Personally I'd say leave out the schlacht units from the Axis OB as the A2A side of things was very much a secondary role. If they are included the temptation is for them to be used as purely fighter units (not ground attack role for Axis in BTR anyway) and the AI will certainly use them as fighters.

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RE: Unit Nameing - 12/16/2007 4:27:15 AM

BlindBat

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Joined: 4/14/2007
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Disregarding for a moment the AI side of things, I would suggest that it depends on what sort of flavor you want the list of aircraft units to impress upon the german player.
A neat orderly list of squadrons with progressive squadron numbers will lend the appearance of a well-structured warmachine, whereas a disorderly system where half the squadron numbers don't exist or don't make sense from a numerical point of view gives the appearance of a chaotic war structure.
Eg. Having JG51/Stab, I, II, III and IV looks neater than having JG51/Stab, I, III, JG52/II, IV and such

Assuming that there's no way of disbanding one group, sending its pilots to the pool and forming the group under a different name (even if it then gets different pilots than it would have by transfeering them directly, depending on the luck of the draw from the pool) and seeing as the change-over takes place quite soon in the game, a month after game start, I would favor having the late-war naming for them, seeing as its the name that will represent them the most, even if its effected a month or so too early. Even if its unhistorical

Can one assume that even if the name change happened in October, that the Luftwaffe administration knew they were going to make that change in August ? Or were these things completly spur of the moment ?

Of course, this would be solved if the player could rename his units :p

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RE: Unit Nameing - 12/16/2007 5:06:04 PM

Hard Sarge

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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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for the nameing, in real life, it was a Command change thing (no, player can not change names or disband units)

one hassle is, sure SKG 10 was in at the start, but I got a year and a half of notes on SG 4, it is HARD to backtrack who should go where (even when you know where they should belong)

there are more hassles with the Jabos then just if they get into combat (I want to add in the Transport units, they were major, besides getting supply out, or in, but also as targets, plus Production, but right now, the only thing I could do, is to add planes that do not fly, which would make them ground targets)

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RE: Unit Nameing - 12/18/2007 1:56:23 AM

jcjordan

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I'd look at it like the AVG vs 23rd FG thing or Eagle Sdrns to 4th FG?, the AVG became the 23rd FG but it was just basically an admin thing along with the Eagle Sqdns so IMO I'd leave it at whatever variation it was in the game first as unless something in the coding can be done to withdraw unit like some of the Italian units when Italy surrenders then have it reappear as a reinforcement a couple of days later. I think that this would open up too many database bug problems though.

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RE: Unit Nameing - 12/31/2007 1:56:26 PM

fochinell

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I'd look at it like the AVG vs 23rd FG thing or Eagle Sdrns to 4th FG?, the AVG became the 23rd FG but it was just basically an admin thing along with the Eagle Sqdns

Agree with you in regard to the Eagles, which amounted to three FC Spit sqns changing uniform, holding a change-of-command ceremony and then collecting USAAF pay whiel continuing to use RAF equipment, control, ground-staff and infrastructure. The AVG were different - a lot of the original AVG voluteers left when the unit was disbanded, and didn't transfer into the 23rd FG.

As for the SG/SKG issue, I'd vote for calling them what they were historically; with existing units at the start of the game having precedence over later re-named units appearing in the OB.

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