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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [American Civil War] >> Gary Grigsby's War Between the States >> AI Question

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AI Question - 5/5/2008 3:13:23 PM

ratters72

Posts: 42
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline

G'day,

I'm a big fan of american civil war games but have been really dissapointed at the AI (or lack there of) in the last two efforts of full theater games. We know who they are

.

Having not played WaW I was wondering a couple of things about the the AI and if someone could offer an honest opinion on the following:

a) is the AI capable of forming some kind of overall strategy? I'm not expecting a super thought out annaconda plan but at least some kind of top level strategy and try and stick to it?

b) will the AI try different things each game (providing replayability) and does it take react/plan differently dpending if it's playing as the union or CSA?

I know AI is THE most difficult thing to do in a game of these sorts but it'd be great for once to get a pc opponent which gives an impression that I'm playing something smarter then a handicapped wombat.

I do plan to do PBEM if I get this baby however (having never done it). I figure being in Australia is helpful for turns etc (eg -nightime when daytime).

Anyway, thanks in advance. A great job by the look of it so far.

Post #: 1

RE: AI Question - 5/5/2008 4:34:15 PM

JanSorensen

Posts: 3684
Joined: 5/2/2005
From: Aalborg, Denmark
Status: offline

I believe you will find the AI in this game a very worthwhile opponent. Sure, its not as smart as a human (may) be but it plays very well.

You can set the AI to various levels of help (basically, it cheats are gets bonuses). Even at normal mode though it offers a very decent challenge for the beginner and intermediate player and once you up the AI level twice its a tough match for experienced players. The best part is that the bonuses it gets are done skillfully enough so that you dont feel that the AI is only doing well because its cheating blatantly - though infact it is "cheating".

All in all I wholeheartedly recommend the AI in this game - and thats not something I tend to do lightly.

(in reply to ratters72)

Post #: 2

RE: AI Question - 5/5/2008 5:09:19 PM

Crimguy

Posts: 1409
Joined: 8/15/2003
From: Cave Creek, AZ
Status: offline

Ageod's AI has been revamped lately. It's actually kicking the snot out of me right now (but I'm CSA which is at a disadvantage if the Union has the sac to go all out).

(in reply to ratters72)

Post #: 3

RE: AI Question - 5/5/2008 6:19:00 PM

GShock

Posts: 1245
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: San Francisco, CA - USA
Status: offline

Point on AgeOD's AI is that the game is more on a tactical level with troop assemblement and several entrenchment levels + leader abilities while WBTS is more strategic and it is probably easier to handle. What i know is that both AI look so far very credible opponents but i still believe AI can *at best* be only a sparring partner, the real fun comes with the PBEM human opponent.

(in reply to Crimguy)

Post #: 4

RE: AI Question - 5/5/2008 6:37:46 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

In my experience, the WBTS AI is very challenging and will likely keep beating most players until they become very skilled in the ins and outs of the system.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to GShock)

Post #: 5

RE: AI Question - 5/5/2008 7:25:02 PM

RedArgo

Posts: 524
Joined: 8/2/2004
From: Illinois
Status: offline

I've been playing the game for a while (a year maybe, I can't remember when I started) and I will usually win on challenging (which is the third level), but if I do something stupid it is close enough I can still lose.

If you look at my AAR, which was played on normal level, the game came right down to the last couple months before the election.

Overall, I'd say, while not experienced human level, it is very competent compared to many games out there.

Bill

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 6

RE: AI Question - 5/5/2008 9:19:19 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

There are 5 levels.

1 - Easy - human gets some advantages

2 - Normal - only a few minimal advantages for the computer player (better transport/rail capacity being the only one you might notice)

3 - Challenging - Normal level advantages plus 100 extra supplies each turn plus Leader and Partisan Help level 1 (helps AI leaders get initiative and determines the amount of partisans that are generated)

4 - Hard - Challenging level with 200 supplies and Leader and Partisan Help level 2

5 - Impossible - Hard level with 300 supplies and Leader and Paritsan Help level 4

The transport, supply help, and Leader and Partisan Help levels can also be set manually. Most players will find Normal a challenge for a few games and then Challenging can keep them challenged for anywhere from a few more games to many months depending on how good the player is. I play against Hard and usually win, but it puts up a good fight. Once you are at PyleDriver's level of play, you will want to play PBEM, and this game, like WaW and AWD are structured for fun PBEM play.

(in reply to RedArgo)

Post #: 7

RE: AI Question - 5/6/2008 1:07:26 AM

ratters72

Posts: 42
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline

Excellent...This is what I wanted to hear (wipes away drool). Thanks for the prompt response. With the way the US dollar is going this game is going to be great value for money.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 8

RE: AI Question - 5/6/2008 2:35:19 PM

Arsan

Posts: 409
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

Hi
I think i read somewhere on this forums (on one of the AAR's probably) that the AI use no fog of war at all.
Is it true?? This seems like a rather big "Cheat".
Regards

(in reply to ratters72)

Post #: 9

RE: AI Question - 5/6/2008 4:02:19 PM

Grell

Posts: 1064
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

This game is going to be great.

Regards,

Greg

_____________________________

(in reply to Arsan)

Post #: 10

RE: AI Question - 5/6/2008 4:30:50 PM

GBS

Posts: 903
Joined: 7/3/2002
From: Southeastern USA
Status: offline

I have another question along these lines. After a year or so of AGEODs game I tired of it and those games take quite a while to complete so I played only a few. Here it seems that the games go much quicker and there are plenty of references of guys playing the game over and over. It sounds like many times. My question is, does the AI have different strategies that it employs that allow for a little variety each time a new game is started? I always play the CSA. Does the AI as the union have a few set things it is trying to accomplish each time or can I count on the same movements over and over again?

(in reply to ratters72)

Post #: 11

RE: AI Question - 5/6/2008 5:51:23 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsan

Hi
I think i read somewhere on this forums (on one of the AAR's probably) that the AI use no fog of war at all.
Is it true?? This seems like a rather big "Cheat".
Regards

Yes and no. It knows where all the units are and tries to use that in it's calculations, but as I said when I first posted this awhile ago, the AI (as all AI's), plays in its own fog so this is not as much of an issue as you would think. Also, it must scout units to spot them in order to avoid the combat bonuses associated with being "unspotted", so in that sense it has the same limitations as a human player. You will not be able to "strategically surprise" it in the same way you might a human player, but as I said, it doesn't have the skill to take advantage of that as much as a human player. It is a big cheat, but one we felt was worthwhile and desirable.

(in reply to Arsan)

Post #: 12

RE: AI Question - 5/6/2008 5:54:11 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GBS

I have another question along these lines. After a year or so of AGEODs game I tired of it and those games take quite a while to complete so I played only a few. Here it seems that the games go much quicker and there are plenty of references of guys playing the game over and over. It sounds like many times. My question is, does the AI have different strategies that it employs that allow for a little variety each time a new game is started? I always play the CSA. Does the AI as the union have a few set things it is trying to accomplish each time or can I count on the same movements over and over again?

Yes, the Union AI has different plans that it will use. Sometimes moving multiple armies west, sometimes, moving major armies to ports it has captured in the south to try to drive inland. There are some things it does all the time, and several things it does differently. The CSA has to generally react to the Union play, so the CSA has less strategic options. It will however launch various counterattacks based on what is available.

For multiple play, we also suggest the random and unknown leader optional rules, which makes each game very different depending on how the leaders come out.

(in reply to GBS)

Post #: 13

RE: AI Question - 5/8/2008 4:11:55 AM

Bo Rearguard

Posts: 492
Joined: 4/7/2008
From: Basement of the Alamo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

For multiple play, we also suggest the random and unknown leader optional rules, which makes each game very different depending on how the leaders come out.

I like the sound of that. So does that mean when the game starts the leaders are all unknown entities where General Lee could be another Bragg, and Grant could be a Ben Butler and you have to find out who is a keeper and who is a dud the hard way?

Considering what Lincoln went through that does sound more historical.

_____________________________

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist ...." Union General John Sedgwick, 1864

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 14

RE: AI Question - 5/8/2008 6:22:40 AM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

When using random or semi-random ratings, some ratings remain the same, but others get scrambled, including the all important attack and defense ratings. That means you may not know until it's too late how good (or bad) your Army Commander is.

(in reply to Bo Rearguard)

Post #: 15

RE: AI Question - 5/8/2008 9:33:56 AM

GShock

Posts: 1245
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: San Francisco, CA - USA
Status: offline

AI is *always* cheating. Figure Cod4 for example. Whatever the level of complexity, in the SP campaign you're still shooting at aimbotters ;-)

As i said many times, there's nothing better than a human opponent...and the worst and noobiest will still be better than any AI. Even if you lose, or if you win by a stupid mistake of your opponent you can still blame the human factor. When you win, it's 10 times more rewarding, when you lose it's 10 times more "teaching". No AI can ever be perfect but market-wise, a game without AI is bad.

The AI in AWD is a very credible opponent. AI of WBTS will be much much better.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 16

RE: AI Question - 5/8/2008 11:48:47 PM

Grotius

Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline

Also, remember that many human players reload saved games -- a "cheat" the AI never, ever gets to use.

A question about random vs semi-random leaders. Does the former mean the Lee might turn out to be a dud, whereas in semi-random Lee is still a good general?

(in reply to GShock)

Post #: 17

RE: AI Question - 5/9/2008 1:16:08 AM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Also, remember that many human players reload saved games -- a "cheat" the AI never, ever gets to use.

A question about random vs semi-random leaders. Does the former mean the Lee might turn out to be a dud, whereas in semi-random Lee is still a good general?

With semi-random, those ratings that change are modified from the historical ratings, so they will tend to be closer to the historical ratings. In Random it generally ignores the historical ratings and uses formulas based on which side the leader is on (and a few other factors) to determine the leader ratings for the game.

< Message edited by Joel Billings -- 5/9/2008 1:17:30 AM >

(in reply to Grotius)

Post #: 18