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Advice - allies on Andrew's extended map - 1/31/2008 7:14:25 AM   
olorin42

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 12/24/2007
From: Charlotte NC
Status: offline 		I'm looking at the CHS / Nik scenarios (155/157) ...

Not familliar with the production needs of the Allies on this map. I see that you now get supplies / fuel in Aden and have to move it from Aden to India instead of from Karachi. My question is three fold -

1) Is it best to bring the stuff in to Karachi and let it get distributed by Rail or should Calcutta and maybe Bombay / Madras get deliveries by ship too?
2) Do i need to deliver oil / resources to keep the heavy industry operational? It looks like I do. Also, same question as #1 for the oil / resources - to Karachi or spread it out?
3) Same question (#2) about Australia - it looks like it needs resources / oil, am I right? (from the US presumably). Spread it out or to one port (Sydney/Brisbane) and let the rail distribute it?

Having not played Japan, I'm not familliar with the production stuff yet so any advice here would be appreciated.
Post #: 1
RE: Advice - allies on Andrew's extended map - 1/31/2008 7:52:24 AM   
okami


Posts: 404
Joined: 5/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: olorin42

I'm looking at the CHS / Nik scenarios (155/157) ...

Not familliar with the production needs of the Allies on this map. I see that you now get supplies / fuel in Aden and have to move it from Aden to India instead of from Karachi. My question is three fold -

1) Is it best to bring the stuff in to Karachi and let it get distributed by Rail or should Calcutta and maybe Bombay / Madras get deliveries by ship too?
2) Do i need to deliver oil / resources to keep the heavy industry operational? It looks like I do. Also, same question as #1 for the oil / resources - to Karachi or spread it out?
3) Same question (#2) about Australia - it looks like it needs resources / oil, am I right? (from the US presumably). Spread it out or to one port (Sydney/Brisbane) and let the rail distribute it?

Having not played Japan, I'm not familliar with the production stuff yet so any advice here would be appreciated.

1/Never let the rail distribute soemthing that you can ship unless you have too.
2/Look at India's total resource output,HI and oil. If oil or resources is less than HI, ship in what is needed. Bring it to the HI centers directly if you can.
3/Same as India above.

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Post #: 2
RE: Advice - allies on Andrew's extended map - 1/31/2008 8:42:44 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		I ship supplies directly to the main ports of India: Bombay, Colombo, Trincomalee, Madras, Diamond Harbor, Calcutta, and Chittagong. Remember that any supplies being transported over the rail network are subject to shrinkage. So unless the Betty/Nell scourge is making it too costly to send transport TFs to Calcutta and Chittagong it is best to ship supplies in by sea. This will also provide a depot to support your forces on the Burmese border.

I find it helpful to ship oil to Bombay, Madras and Calcutta to help the industry there create supplies. I also will ship resources to Aden to help create supplies there as well. I'm sure that later in the war this won't prove necessary, but as my game approaches 1943 (late December '42) I do not have a huge surplus of supply in the area.


Australia is also a beneficiary of oil shipments (and a small amount of oil and resources to Auckland).



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Post #: 3
RE: Advice - allies on Andrew's extended map - 1/31/2008 8:39:58 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		I haven't had much need to ship lots of stuff to India (CHS 156).  I generally load up the reinformeent troops and top off the transports with supplies, and all is good.  I'm sure you could ship more to India, but it would be largely excess for me.

For Oz, I've have a pair of TKs load up oil from the West Coast ever other week or so (as often as it takes to get 25k oil there), and send it Sydney/Bris.  Also, Aden produces a little bit of oil (ironically, seems like it should be more, but I really don't care); I load it onto a TK every once and while and drop in on Perth.

-F-

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RE: Advice - allies on Andrew's extended map - 1/31/2008 8:47:05 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		The Perth area actually generates a slight surplus of oil.  Carry it all the way to Melbourne/Sydney, or just drop it off in Calcutta.  In Scen 155, Aden starts with it's oil industry quite damaged to simulate the ramping up of production as the war goes along.  If you let it repair, it will eventually get to size 400, producing 2400 oil/turn in addition to the "automatic" 600 oil/turn that is produced there.

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Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 5
RE: Advice - allies on Andrew's extended map - 1/31/2008 8:49:14 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		I have one CHS game going (156 I think).  I'm not certain of the supply needs of India yet.  I suspect you could get away with shipping the bulk of the supply to Karachi and supplementing it with additional supply to other coastal cities.  I don't completely trust the rail lines for supply distribution.

For the allies (and I find this to be universally true regardless of mod) if you have to ship resources in you might as well ship supplies and fuel.  The exception to this is it does make sense to ship as much oil and resources out of the SRA before it falls.  However, you can ship far more supplies and fuel to India and Oz than the factories can ever produce and tracking the resource/oil requirements to me is just extra logistical overhead. 


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Post #: 6
RE: Advice - allies on Andrew's extended map - 2/1/2008 3:00:47 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: olorin42
Is it best to bring the stuff in to Karachi and let it get distributed by Rail or should Calcutta and maybe Bombay / Madras get deliveries by ship too?


I wouldn’t try to ship stuff further than Madras once Burma falls. Japanese naval air will own the Indian Ocean and then there is always the threat of KB showing up and sending everything in the Indian Ocean to the bottom. It’s much better to ship to Bombay or Karachi and lose some supply for the rail transfer than it is to lose a bunch of shipping. Especially since India is so dependent on imports from Aden.


quote:

ORIGINAL: olorin42
Do i need to deliver oil / resources to keep the heavy industry operational? It looks like I do. Also, same question as #1 for the oil / resources - to Karachi or spread it out?


I did a calculation of India’s industry for the allies in scenario 158. These are the numbers I came up with:

Daily allotment supply per turn……..1,745
Supply at resource centers…………… 4,040
Resources per turn………………….……. 5,050
Oil per turn……………………………….….......540
Fuel per turn………………………………..........90
Daily allotment fuel per turn………....1,000
Heavy Industry…………………………...….2.250
Manpower………………………………............171

So there is a daily shortage of 1,710 oil a day in India. I didn’t add Burmese production as it is eventually lost. So you need to ship in pretty much all the oil you can from Aden if you want India to be able to produce max supplies and fuel.

But even without any outside oil coming into India, it will produce 6,325 supplies a day on its own. This is not enough supply to launch any kind of offensive operations for sure, but it’s probably enough to sustain defensive operations.

Even if you keep its industry humming along at full capacity though, India still only produces 8,035 supplies a day, so you’re going to need to ship a lot of supplies in from Aden before you can begin to launch a serious offensive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: olorin42
Same question (#2) about Australia - it looks like it needs resources / oil, am I right? (from the US presumably). Spread it out or to one port (Sydney/Brisbane) and let the rail distribute it?


Australia is in a lot worse shape than India supply wise. It is pretty much totally dependent on the US for supplies. And given that load capacities of ships have been reduced even more in CHS than in stock, you’re going to need a very large percentage of your available AK fleet dedicated to doing nothing else but shipping supplies and fuel to Australia. I sent all of my long legged AK’s from India to the US at the very beginning of my game, and I’m still short AK’s.

At first I’d send nothing but fuel instead of oil because Australia starts the game very dry. Once you’ve gotten fuel stocks up to decent levels, then switch about half your tankers to shipping in oil instead as it gives both supply and fuel once it gets produced.

Send most of your supplies to Sydney and Melbourne. Keep your long legged AK’s moving between Australia and the US, don’t waste time trying to supply outlying bases with them. Use the shorter legged AK’s (less than 13,000 endurance) to ship it to bases further north or west from there.

Jim

P.S. India has a surplus of resources, Aden needs all of them, so make sure your AK's do double duty and bring back the resources to Aden.



< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 2/1/2008 3:16:05 AM >

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RE: Advice - allies on Andrew's extended map - 2/1/2008 1:36:05 PM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
Joined: 5/31/2006
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


Daily allotment supply per turn……..1,745
Supply at resource centers…………… 4,040
Resources per turn………………….……. 5,050
Oil per turn……………………………….….......540
Fuel per turn………………………………..........90
Daily allotment fuel per turn………....1,000
Heavy Industry…………………………...….2.250
Manpower………………………………............171

So there is a daily shortage of 1,710 oil a day in India.

But even without any outside oil coming into India, it will produce 6,325 supplies a day on its own. This is not enough supply to launch any kind of offensive operations for sure, but it’s probably enough to sustain defensive operations.

Even if you keep its industry humming along at full capacity though, India still only produces 8,035 supplies a day, so you’re going to need to ship a lot of supplies in from Aden before you can begin to launch a serious offensive.

I think there's an error in "supply at resource centers". You've correctly added all resource centers and "daily resources" for a total of 5050 resources per turn, but only RC produce another supply point, not "daily resource". So "Supply at resource centers" should be only 2295.

Supply production in India without HI: 4040
Supply production in India with HI: 6290

quote:

P.S. India has a surplus of resources, Aden needs all of them, so make sure your AK's do double duty and bring back the resources to Aden.

Aden needs 200 resources per day (more if you let the HI repair), that's only 6000 per month.

I never let the HI at Aden repair, there's already an oil deficit in India, and I don't want to make it worse. Of course repairing the oil centers at Aden is a given: after approx. 300 days, Aden will produce enough oil to keep India supplied.

< Message edited by VSWG -- 2/1/2008 2:15:48 PM >

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Post #: 8
RE: Advice - allies on Andrew's extended map - 2/1/2008 2:20:28 PM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
Joined: 5/31/2006
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Also, "Resources per turn" should only be 4613. You have to separate "daily resources" and "resource centers" - the latter produces 1,25 resources points and 1 supply per turn, the former only 1 resource point per turn.

< Message edited by VSWG -- 2/1/2008 2:21:36 PM >

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Post #: 9
RE: Advice - allies on Andrew's extended map - 2/1/2008 9:40:34 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG
I think there's an error in "supply at resource centers". You've correctly added all resource centers and "daily resources" for a total of 5050 resources per turn, but only RC produce another supply point, not "daily resource". So "Supply at resource centers" should be only 2295.


There are no daily resources, only daily supply allotments. There are a total of 4,040 resource centers in India, each one produces 1 supply and 1.25 resources each day.

So add 4,040 supplies from resource centers to 1,745 daily allotment supply (supply that appears at a base no matter what) and you get 5785 supplies a day. Now add 540 for the in country oil that gets used at the HI and India can produce 6,325 supplies a day without any imports.

It produces 8,035 supplies a day (5785 supplies + 2250 HI) if Aden’s oil imports manage to keep industry humming along at full speed.

It’s a mistake not to repair both the oil and HI in Aden. Aden will eventually produce enough oil to run both India and Aden. Supply in this region of the world is short, the allies will need every bit they can produce if they want to run large offensives starting in 1944.

Jim


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 2/1/2008 9:42:43 PM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Advice - allies on Andrew's extended map - 2/1/2008 10:11:25 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

It’s a mistake not to repair both the oil and HI in Aden. Aden will eventually produce enough oil to run both India and Aden. Supply in this region of the world is short, the allies will need every bit they can produce if they want to run large offensives starting in 1944.

Jim



I'm expanding/repairing the oil first. Once it's cooking at a couple hundred more oil/day than it starts with, I'll turn on the repairs for the HI as well.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 11
RE: Advice - allies on Andrew's extended map - 2/1/2008 10:15:55 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		One point about shipping supplies to India.  It is really pointless to micro-manage the supply movement in India.  My experience has been that the supply is going to eventually move where the computer wants it anyway.  You can push supplies to under supplied units by shipping it to a closer destination, but you can't stock pile supplies that way.  If you have excess supply the computer usually will redistribute it for you.

I recently spent several weeks stockpiling supplies at Akyab only to find that the computer sent well over half back over the trails back to India.

If you anticipate a sudden spike in supply requirements the best way to handle it is by keeping pre-loaded AKs in port, or at a nearby safe port.

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Post #: 12
RE: Advice - allies on Andrew's extended map - 2/1/2008 10:48:07 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America
I'm expanding/repairing the oil first. Once it's cooking at a couple hundred more oil/day than it starts with, I'll turn on the repairs for the HI as well.


The longer you wait to do it the less you'll get as a return on investment. Start from day one so you'll maximize how much supply/fuel it produces throughout the game.

I don’t remember the exact numbers, but assume you need to repair 500 HI. That’s an investment of 500,000 supplies to fully repair it. Those 500 HI only produce 500 * 365 = 182,500 supplies a year. It takes 1,000 days to pay for the initial repairs, so get it repaired ASAP so you’ll have as much *profit* as possible in the late game when you’ll be using massive amounts of supplies.

Of course they produce fuel as well, so there is ample reason to repair the HI, but if you put it off for too long, it simply makes it less worth your while.

In my game I've been repairing both from day one and India still has plenty of supply and fuel, so don't put it off.

Jim


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RE: Advice - allies on Andrew's extended map - 2/1/2008 11:16:02 PM   
VSWG


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Joined: 5/31/2006
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

There are no daily resources, only daily supply allotments.



Yes, there are "daily resources" in India, lots of them: 200 at Karachi, 300 at Calcutta, 100 at Madras, 200 at Bombay, ...

quote:

There are a total of 4,040 resource centers in India, each one produces 1 supply and 1.25 resources each day.

I count 2295 resource centers and 1750 daily resources in India. Together they produce 4613 resource points and 2295 supplies per day.

Additionally, there are also 1750 "daily supply" in India. Andrew Brown "paired" each "daily resource" with a "daily supply" in India, but the former *do not* produce another supply point.

CHS 208, Scen 155.

quote:

It’s a mistake not to repair both the oil and HI in Aden. Aden will eventually produce enough oil to run both India and Aden. Supply in this region of the world is short, the allies will need every bit they can produce if they want to run large offensives starting in 1944.

Yes, but during the first crucial months I prefer to keep those 1000 supplies per day, rather than invest them in HI that will pay off only years later.

< Message edited by VSWG -- 2/1/2008 11:20:54 PM >

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RE: Advice - allies on Andrew's extended map - 2/1/2008 11:43:16 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG
Yes, there are "daily resources" in India, lots of them: 200 at Karachi, 300 at Calcutta, 100 at Madras, 200 at Bombay, ...

I count 2295 resource centers and 1750 daily resources in India. Together they produce 4613 resource points and 2295 supplies per day.

Additionally, there are also 1750 "daily supply" in India. Andrew Brown "paired" each "daily resource" with a "daily supply" in India, but the former *do not* produce another supply point.


Yes you are right, looks like I got lazy and lumped them all together in my notes when I was adding things up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG
Yes, but during the first crucial months I prefer to keep those 1000 supplies per day, rather than invest them in HI that will pay off only years later.


As I said, I’ve been repairing them from day one and still have plenty of supplies in India. I don’t have stocks in the hundreds of thousands, but I’ve managed to keep bases that need over 20K well over that mark. Now that I’m in May, stocks are nearing a hundred thousand at some bases in India and the repairs are over 1/3rd of the way done.

With only 1400-1500 turns or so in the game, it makes no sense to repair the HI later in the game, you won’t make enough of a *profit* to justify the repairs expense repairing them later in game.

The allies don’t have that large of a supply draw footprint on the map early in the game in India. Even with repairs going I could easily have fought a land campaign in India if needed and not been short supplies.

Later once tons of air units and land units have arrived on map, just having them sit idle will put a strain on produced supplies. If your repairs aren’t done by then, you probably won’t be able to afford to keep them going. Especially if a heavy air campaign is being fought in Burma.

Jim


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