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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [American Civil War] >> Gary Grigsby's War Between the States >> Spotting Page: [1]
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Spotting - 6/18/2008 1:19:25 PM   
Basilhare

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline 		Spotting must play a huge a role in the combat probabilities...I noticed I was loosing almost every battle as the South vs. the AI...even situations where i had even numbers and was defending in Level 1 Forts....i re-read the rules on combat and then checked the FOG of War settings and sure enough, my settings were on Fog but the AI was not, which must have really tipped the favor of the Union attacks...

Q: The rules suggest that you switch units in and out of areas to avoid being spotted....doesnt this seem a bit tedious and ahistorical??? I just dont see Lee saying to Jackson before Chancellorsville, "Lets Move the 3rd Texas Regiment over to the left flank and move the 11th NC over to the right...I think 'ole Hooker has spotted them..."

Q: What do the vertical UNION & CSA Bars to the sides of the combat screen indicate...the fill w/ Blue & Grey color and the number on top changes (maybe a die roll?) but I can not figure out what they are telling me...

Thanks...enjoying the game...
Post #: 1
RE: Spotting - 6/18/2008 2:01:19 PM   
oldspec4

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 11/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Basilhare

Spotting must play a huge a role in the combat probabilities...I noticed I was loosing almost every battle as the South vs. the AI...even situations where i had even numbers and was defending in Level 1 Forts....i re-read the rules on combat and then checked the FOG of War settings and sure enough, my settings were on Fog but the AI was not, which must have really tipped the favor of the Union attacks...

Q: The rules suggest that you switch units in and out of areas to avoid being spotted....doesnt this seem a bit tedious and ahistorical??? I just dont see Lee saying to Jackson before Chancellorsville, "Lets Move the 3rd Texas Regiment over to the left flank and move the 11th NC over to the right...I think 'ole Hooker has spotted them..."

Q: What do the vertical UNION & CSA Bars to the sides of the combat screen indicate...the fill w/ Blue & Grey color and the number on top changes (maybe a die roll?) but I can not figure out what they are telling me...

Thanks...enjoying the game...


This was the answer to my question on the vertical bars:

"They are a visual indication of the relative forces involved as shown by the numbers. The higher the number, the higher the bar relative to the other side's bar".

(in reply to Basilhare)
Post #: 2
RE: Spotting - 6/18/2008 4:24:00 PM   
JanSorensen

 

Posts: 3684
Joined: 5/2/2005
From: Aalborg, Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Basilhare

Spotting must play a huge a role in the combat probabilities...I noticed I was loosing almost every battle as the South vs. the AI...even situations where i had even numbers and was defending in Level 1 Forts....i re-read the rules on combat and then checked the FOG of War settings and sure enough, my settings were on Fog but the AI was not, which must have really tipped the favor of the Union attacks...

Q: The rules suggest that you switch units in and out of areas to avoid being spotted....doesnt this seem a bit tedious and ahistorical??? I just dont see Lee saying to Jackson before Chancellorsville, "Lets Move the 3rd Texas Regiment over to the left flank and move the 11th NC over to the right...I think 'ole Hooker has spotted them..."

Q: What do the vertical UNION & CSA Bars to the sides of the combat screen indicate...the fill w/ Blue & Grey color and the number on top changes (maybe a die roll?) but I can not figure out what they are telling me...

Thanks...enjoying the game...


FoW <> spotted/unspotted

Being spotted or not is seperate from Fog of War. Without Fog of War you (the player) will know where all enemy forces are - but your troops wont know till the enemy is spotted. So, all the effects of being spotted or not are the same regardless of FoW - the only effect of FoW is that you (the player) has less info to go on.

The AI "cheats" and never plays with FoW. Its foggy enough as it is so it was deemed reasonable to let it cheat in this manner. As per the above that does _not_ mean that it automatically spots all your units - it still needs to do scouting to spot your forces.

"Spotted shuffling"
Yes, in a way this is not very historical. However, if you view it as an abstraction of letting your troops get some R&R and/or reorganisation once in a while by being pulled out of the front and later returning all fresh and reorganised it makes pretty good sense. The effect certainly makes sense because you pull back forces from the front to make them more effective.

(in reply to Basilhare)
Post #: 3
RE: Spotting - 6/18/2008 4:52:36 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Basilhare
Q: The rules suggest that you switch units in and out of areas to avoid being spotted....doesnt this seem a bit tedious and ahistorical??? I just dont see Lee saying to Jackson before Chancellorsville, "Lets Move the 3rd Texas Regiment over to the left flank and move the 11th NC over to the right...I think 'ole Hooker has spotted them..."


There are two things at work here. The first is fog of war, which determines what regions you can really see into on the strategic map. The second is spotting, which is based on scouting and that determines what forces you know to be in the regions that you can see. Spotting in the sense of scouting was crucial in the Civil War and played a very significant role in a number of battles as far as how the armies reacted to each other. On a tactical/operational scale, consider Jackson's flanking maneuver at Chancellorsville or Lee's lack of clear information on the Union army's location at Gettysburg.

What the rules are advising is that if you move units back out of range of enemy cavalry where they can't be scouted, then you now have a strategic reserve that you can move into a battle and know that the enemy will not "see them coming". This would be akin to Longstreet's arrival at Chickamauga, if I recall correctly.

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Basilhare)
Post #: 4
RE: Spotting - 6/18/2008 6:16:34 PM   
Motomouse

 

Posts: 240
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline 		The AI pulled a quite effective siege against my confederate forces at Vicksburg in my first game, preventing me from "shuffling" in and out my troops. The AI campaign in the west reminded me closely of my Battle Cry of Freedom reading memories (Good read, Aegods ACW inspired an old world monkey to tackle this fine book). On other occasions I keep the reserves in the rear and commit them only after it is clear, from which direction the main thrust is arriving (Already fell prey to smaller AI attacks, so that I was not able to answer the second big coming accordingly). So I can live pretty well with the spotting rules .




(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 5
RE: Spotting - 6/18/2008 10:14:04 PM   
Basilhare

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline 		Okay, thanks. I obviously have a great deal to learn to master the game. When I posted this morning, I did have FoW & Spotting confused as the same thing....I see now that these are two different game mechanics...

I guess Im scratching my head now wondering how an attacking Union Army of roughly the same size w/ the same or worse leaders can consistently best a defending CSA force w/ level 1 entrenchments 9 of 10 times...I actually re-ran the reaction phase & ensuing battle about 10 times and the USA beat the CSA force 9 of 10 times (on normal difficulty)...the CSA force starts with 10,000 men and 180 guns vs the USA force of 6,000 men and 160 guns...the battle eventually builds (sometimes going until "engagement 9") to about 41,000 CSA troops/180 guns vs. 49,000 Union Troops w/ 160 guns....USA almost always came out on top...the biggest difference that I could tell was that I had not rotated my troops in & out of the combat region and must have all been spotted vs. the Union troops that were largely unspotted...I suppose this would equate to a surprise attack???

Perhaps one (even on defense) needs to constantly scout adjacent regions so that most / all the enemy troops are spotted???

(in reply to Motomouse)
Post #: 6
RE: Spotting - 6/18/2008 10:31:23 PM   
tedhealy


Posts: 138
Joined: 1/28/2005
From: St. Louis, MO, USA
Status: offline 		I'm trying to come to grips with the same issue as CSA defending.  Things to keep in mind - the turn is a month long, so lots of things can happen, leaders make a huge difference, numbers are important but things like militia vs infantry and combat experience can tip the scales, were any leaders shot on the csa side or were any units without a leader, what kind of terrain are you on?  Don't forget you can go through and examine every 'shot' fired and see the dice rolls to see what happened.

Slowly as I've gotten better at defending forest/mountain areas rather than clear areas, making sure my frontline generals have 3 or 4 for defense, and always making sure I have the absolute best available as my AC, I've gotten better results.  Also give Grant something to think about in the west with 2 ACs near the front, one near the Mississippi river and one nearer to Chattanooga so he can't mass the entire army consistently.  He'll need troops in mid KY to stop any counter attack from you. 

It's very easy to spot how crucial ACs and generals are to a battle when comparing Grant vs CSA western schlubs with even numbers and how Grant continually wins close battles and how the same is true in the east for Lee vs Union schlubs with even numbers and how Lee usually wins.


< Message edited by tedhealy -- 6/18/2008 10:33:17 PM >

(in reply to Basilhare)
Post #: 7
RE: Spotting - 6/18/2008 10:35:52 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Yes, even on defense you'll want to use your cavalry to scout the enemy (and screen your own forces). Although you had a defensive position, your army had very little idea of where the Union army was or what direction they'd be coming from or when they'd attack. Although some of this information is gained without scouting, scouting makes a big difference. It's especially important if you see the enemy scouting you effectively each turn to make sure you're doing the same to him to see what he's up to, because it may predict an attack.

The CSA starts with a pretty big advantage in this respect as far as their cavalry leaders and the relative ease with which they can train Mounted units to become Cavalry, which makes a big difference in terms of Scouting and Screening. If you neglect to Scout the enemy and Screen your own forces with cavalry, then you'll definitely have a strike against you already when the battle starts.

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 6/18/2008 10:36:06 PM >

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Basilhare)
Post #: 8
RE: Spotting - 6/19/2008 6:27:03 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Really guys, try playing like 10 games and get back to me. No two are alike. Alot of you are catching on quick, but play a few. In my AAR with Joel I hit brick walls the CSA put up with his better know how. It's really hard to play a guy that knows all the rules. Besides Joel and Jan, I'm the man, and I'm about ready to lose our AAR...lol.. Humble huh. I'm waiting for him to post first, but heres a hint, It's coming down to Shermans attack on Richmond on the last turn...


Jon

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 9
RE: Spotting - 6/19/2008 7:02:13 AM   
tran505

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 11/11/2007
Status: offline 		I think part of the issue is that this is the first computer ACW game that most of us have not been able to blow through on the first playthrough.  We're not used to the abuse!  Egos being shattered everywhere!

P

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 10
RE: Spotting - 6/19/2008 8:05:07 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		To attack, you need initiative, intiative, initiative. To win battles, you need leaders, leaders, leaders. The AC's are crucial to winning battles, and the unit commanders will impact things as well (although nowhere near as important as the AC). The attack rating of the attacking AC versus the defense rating of the defending AC is the biggest factor in determining who is going to win (more than manpower).

As for scouting, don't forget about the scouted level rules. If you are in Manassas and you expect the attack to come from Washington, you should be heavily scouting Washington every turn. Even if the units start in Baltimore, if they move through Washington which has been scouted, they will become spotted before the battle in Manassas. Save for the attacker. If you're attacking Manassas, be sure to scout it heavily before you move your attacking units in. If you scout it well, the Confederate units that react into the area before the battle will actually be "spotted" just prior to the combat resolution so your units will not be surprised. Yes, you should rotate units to the rear when possible (for several reasons), but a player with cavalry that does the appropriate scouting will not be tactically surprised by enemy units reacting into the area. If you're ever in a battle where more than a couple of enemy units are getting the surprise bonus for not having been spotted, you're doing something wrong (and probably taking lots of causalties).

(in reply to tran505)
Post #: 11
RE: Spotting - 6/24/2008 10:04:08 PM   
chris51

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: England
Status: offline 		Am I right in saying that the best way of minimising spotting is having an effective cavalry screen of your own forces? Especially as Joel just pointed out that a region once scouted stays scouted even if you move troops into it on a reaction phase?

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 12
RE: Spotting - 6/24/2008 10:11:58 PM   
Bo Rearguard


Posts: 492
Joined: 4/7/2008
From: Basement of the Alamo
Status: offline 		Yes! You want to have cavalry to screen the enemy's cavalry and keep his scouting level low. Otherwise even unspotted units that move into the region during the reaction phase stand a good chance of becoming spotted at the beginning of the combat phase and there goes the element of surprise.

_____________________________

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(in reply to chris51)
Post #: 13
RE: Spotting - 6/24/2008 10:19:00 PM   
WarHunter


Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline 		Does a spotted unit have to move to a region completly out of sight of any enemy held regions to become unspotted?
Can a unit move laterally, to a region still next to an enemy but out of sight of the Cav unit doing the recon and be unspotted?


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(in reply to Bo Rearguard)
Post #: 14
RE: Spotting - 6/24/2008 10:30:57 PM   
Berkut

 

Posts: 757
Joined: 5/16/2002
Status: offline 		The problem I have run into as the Union is that early in the war, there is no real way for them to do this spotting. Their cav stinks, is rarely active, and doesn't seem to accomplish anything when it does activate.

(in reply to WarHunter)
Post #: 15
RE: Spotting - 6/24/2008 10:33:36 PM   
dakjck

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 10/22/2006
Status: offline 		This discussion would suggest that it is better to keep cavalry on the picket line, scouting and screening, rather than concentrated with the reaction force.  Is that generally true?

(in reply to Berkut)
Post #: 16
RE: Spotting - 6/24/2008 10:36:47 PM   
Berkut

 

Posts: 757
Joined: 5/16/2002
Status: offline 		Well, it cannot scout if it is not active, so not much point in leaving it anywhere but where it can cosnistently activate - so that means with a AC.

(in reply to dakjck)
Post #: 17
RE: Spotting - 6/24/2008 10:43:00 PM   
Habbaku


Posts: 27
Joined: 1/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dakjck

This discussion would suggest that it is better to keep cavalry on the picket line, scouting and screening, rather than concentrated with the reaction force.  Is that generally true?


I think that depends on the force and, certainly, the cavalry leader. Stuart or Forrest, for example, are probably ideal for being concentrated and reacting places. The lesser leaders would be good at the opposite, I think.

_____________________________

"Man is rather stupid than wicked."

Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

(in reply to dakjck)
Post #: 18
RE: Spotting - 6/25/2008 1:15:49 AM   
dakjck

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 10/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

Well, it cannot scout if it is not active, so not much point in leaving it anywhere but where it can cosnistently activate - so that means with a AC.


Is this true, that cavalry has to be activated to scout? Cavalry has a base movement factor of 3 which would allow it to enter many areas without being activated, or am I missing a rule?

(in reply to Berkut)
Post #: 19
RE: Spotting - 6/25/2008 1:34:33 AM   
willgamer


Posts: 902
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dakjck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

Well, it cannot scout if it is not active, so not much point in leaving it anywhere but where it can cosnistently activate - so that means with a AC.


Is this true, that cavalry has to be activated to scout? Cavalry has a base movement factor of 3 which would allow it to enter many areas without being activated, or am I missing a rule?


Cavalry can both scout and raid without initiative.

< Message edited by willgamer -- 6/25/2008 4:39:43 AM >

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(in reply to dakjck)
Post #: 20
RE: Spotting - 6/25/2008 1:37:03 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Cavalry does not have to have initiative to scout. A cav unit will always have 3 MP, which is enough to scout most important adjacent areas (exception is in Winter over a river). Cav should stay in the front lines to scout/raid and prevent enemy scouting/raiding. For the Union, it's very important to have Cav with the AC to defend the depots against raids, and also to scout areas the AC is going to attack. The good cav leaders often have a good chance of getting initiative without the AC, so on defense, the cav doesn't need to be with the AC, if the AC is in an unspotted area.

In order to become hidden, a unit must not end it's turn next to an enemy area, so lateral moves will not hide your troops.

(in reply to dakjck)
Post #: 21
RE: Spotting - 6/25/2008 1:53:05 AM   
hgilmer

 

Posts: 184
Joined: 6/2/2007
From: Birmingham, Alabama
Status: offline 		    Good info here!!  Helps me out a lot on stuff I might have eventually had to ask about.

_____________________________


(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 22
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