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Disease - 7/2/2008 4:08:24 AM   
Mad Russian


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This goes along with sea invasions a bit....but I thought I'd give it it's own thread.

Disease in the game seems a bit too abstract for a game of this complexity as well.

How is it that every single turn some part of your Army gets hit by disease? Every turn??

And why is it by unit and not by area?

I would think the swamps of Florida, or Galveston as has been brought up, would have a higher incident rate for any troops currently in them that say Cleveland, Ohio.

I think there should be a chance that any and every region could generate a health issue. That alot of what seems to be modeled is sanitary issues. That doesn't change the fact that in the swamps of the south any combat units in there would take an added risk.

Does the disease model take this into account or is it simply a random generation from those units on the map?

Good Hunting.

MR
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RE: Disease - 7/2/2008 4:35:16 AM   
Gil R.


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Units in provinces with swamps or adjacent to swamps suffer more from disease, that's definitely in the game. As I recall, the way disease works in general is that every turn disease randomly hits one unit on either side, and then affects all of the other friendly units in that province. (Maybe it hits both sides each turn, but I don't think so.) Since most units are in armies, this has the effect of armies getting hit more than, say, the lone garrison in Topeka, Kansas.

The issue of disease hitting Cleveland is an interesting one. I usually play as the CSA, so I hadn't noticed this, but it might make sense to code the game so that disease doesn't hit units in certain states that are far from the fighting. Would this idea be worth implementing?

(in reply to Mad Russian)
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RE: Disease - 7/2/2008 8:32:52 AM   
haruntaiwan

 

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Disease doesn't care if the fighting is far away. Its mainly interested in lots of humans packed together in barracks or camps with bad sanitation.

The 1917 flu hit lots of barracks in Kansas I believe, far from the fighting in WW I.

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RE: Disease - 7/2/2008 9:21:17 AM   
Greybriar


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The implementation of disease in populated areas might be a good idea if it were realistically done. I hardly think the bubonic plague in New York in 1863 would be realistic, but an outbreak of the flu might be.

That could lead to random events similar to Mrs. O'Leary's cow starting the Great Chicago Fire. Or maybe not--we wouldn't want to get too carried away, now would we?

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RE: Disease - 7/2/2008 1:36:17 PM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: haruntaiwan

Disease doesn't care if the fighting is far away. Its mainly interested in lots of humans packed together in barracks or camps with bad sanitation.

The 1917 flu hit lots of barracks in Kansas I believe, far from the fighting in WW I.


To a certain extent I agree. However, I think that you will find that malaria is fairly rare in Cleveland but might not be so rare in the swamps along the Gulf of Mexico in the 1860's.

The fact that a disease outbreak happens every turn seems a bit too much disease going around. But maybe not. I've not done a study on the effects of disease in the war. I just don't remember reading that much about a constant battle with disease like I have show up on my doorstep in most of the game.

Good Hunting.

MR


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RE: Disease - 7/2/2008 2:36:11 PM   
Gil R.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
The fact that a disease outbreak happens every turn seems a bit too much disease going around. But maybe not. I've not done a study on the effects of disease in the war. I just don't remember reading that much about a constant battle with disease like I have show up on my doorstep in most of the game.

Good Hunting.

MR



Disease was a major cause of death in the Civil War. (Perhaps the biggest one, even? I'm eager to head to Manassas right now, so I won't take the time to check the numbers.) When FOF came out, we had suitably deadly outbreaks of disease, but too many players got upset about losing thousands of men routinely, so we scaled back its impact. Personally, I think the level of disease is now too low, but people seem happy with it the way it is, and it still can cause the player a good deal of trouble at times. It certainly isn't too high, though.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
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RE: Disease - 7/2/2008 2:51:28 PM   
Ironclad

 

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Disease was far more virulent in the initial version of FOF - a raging pestilence in fact, crippling when it hit your main army, often more deadly than heavy casualties from a decisive battle. In response to players reactions it was massively toned down in a patch which included improved medical attribute effects and alleviation through better supply levels. Still nasty to get caught in swamps though.

Nice one you beat me to it Gil. I seem to recall that two thirds of all the combatant deaths in the Civil War were not battle casualties ie they were result of sickness.

< Message edited by Ironclad -- 7/2/2008 2:54:58 PM >

(in reply to Mad Russian)
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RE: Disease - 7/2/2008 3:46:59 PM   
morganbj


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quote:

     At least 618,000 Americans died in the Civil War, and some experts say the toll reached 700,000. The number that is most often quoted is 620,000. At any rate, these casualties exceed the nation's loss in all its other wars, from the Revolution through Vietnam.
       The Union armies had from 2,500,000 to 2,750,000 men. Their losses, by the best estimates:





Battle deaths:
110,070

Disease, etc.:
250,152

Total
360,222
        The Confederate strength, known less accurately because of missing records, was from 750,000 to 1,250,000. Its estimated losses:





Battle deaths:
94,000

Disease, etc.:
164,000

Total
258,000


From here:  http://www.civilwarhome.com/casualties.htm

So, perhaps the game is too lenient when it comes to disease casualties?

If I were to change it, I would have disease strike every unit, every turn.  Units in certain terrain should get more, but everybody should get some.

Or, just abstract it into the replacement rates and not have it identified at all, except nationally.  Too many people want to try to make this a simulation and not a game.

Sure, it annoys me that Fredricksburg gets hit a lot with disease.  But, if I build a few hospitals around and make sure every division has a unit with the med upgrade, it's not excessive.  I can still send the yellow-bellied yanks home crying to their mothers when they try to get to Richmond.  Besides, disease hits them, too.  (I hope.)

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RE: Disease - 7/2/2008 3:51:40 PM   
morganbj


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And, pondering the numbers in my last post a little bit, maybe the combat casualties are too high in the game.  I wonder if the two just basically wash...

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RE: Disease - 7/2/2008 8:34:58 PM   
Ironclad

 

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The deliberate toning down of disease does mean battle casualties taking up a higher proportion. Admittedly that would be even greater if surrenders totals were counted say at half rate. To help keep track it would be good to have cumulative loss totals shown as well as the graphs in the statistics section.

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RE: Disease - 7/2/2008 10:44:45 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.
The issue of disease hitting Cleveland is an interesting one. I usually play as the CSA, so I hadn't noticed this, but it might make sense to code the game so that disease doesn't hit units in certain states that are far from the fighting. Would this idea be worth implementing?


Before you get going too far on that idea, I think it should hit units far from the fighting.

My understanding was that disease was a problem especially among recruits from isolated rural backgrounds -- who dropped like flies when they were exposed to all the diseases endemic to the big cities of the era.

So Cleveland would be a deathtrap for Iowa farm boys -- not a safe haven. And whatever the insalubrious qualities of Florida swamps, they might well pale in comparison to a trip to the New York City of the era.


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RE: Disease - 7/2/2008 10:52:22 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
The fact that a disease outbreak happens every turn seems a bit too much disease going around. But maybe not. I've not done a study on the effects of disease in the war. I just don't remember reading that much about a constant battle with disease like I have show up on my doorstep in most of the game.

Good Hunting.

MR


I'm happy thinking of the disease not as a reflection of the general constant mortality -- which was astronomical -- but of surges beyond the usual drizzle of losses, which can be assumed to be more or less reflected in replacement rates being less than the historical intake of either army (which I assume to be the case).

Incidentally, in the bells and whistles department, it might be worth thinking about giving the Union a 'total war' option along the lines of what happened when Grant started his butchery in 1864.

The Union gets floods of replacements -- but its national will and the attitude of the units starts falling. More or less what indeed started happening in the Summer of 1864 and on into the fall.

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RE: Disease - 7/3/2008 1:38:13 AM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

Too many people want to try to make this a simulation and not a game.



I guess that depends on why you play wargames. I play them to get a better understanding of the history I study. For that, I want the game to be as representative of the industrial/economic/political/combat models as possible.

If that make it more like a simulation then thats fine with me.

The difference, for me personally, is how it's presented to the community. IF you say this is an introductory level game on strategy on the ACW I'm not expecting much and probably won't buy it. If it says it's a detailed strategic representation of the ACW which includes detailed industrial/political/economic/combat models I probably will buy it and my expectations as to what, and how it represents those areas, goes up accordingly.

You don't want a simulation then buy something thats not so detailed. You want a simulation you buy the most detailed game on the market. Where do you suppose that FoF falls in that scale?

Good Hunting.

MR


< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 7/3/2008 1:40:11 AM >

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RE: Disease - 7/3/2008 7:07:44 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

Too many people want to try to make this a simulation and not a game.



I guess that depends on why you play wargames. I play them to get a better understanding of the history I study.



My vote is for simulation. Among the various shortcomings of Forge of Freedom, the ones that really bug me are not those that detract from the 'fun' but those that seem questionable in terms of simulating the Civil War.

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RE: Disease - 7/3/2008 10:04:03 AM   
GShock


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+1 to simulation. I think the disease right now is low both in frequency and in death-toll. It should be much higher to make hospitals also a key building and not only due to historical reasons. I think adding history-based events to the game could definitely add such features such as the one in NY 1863 but i agree, these losses should be tweaked higher. 

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RE: Disease - 7/3/2008 1:09:32 PM   
morganbj


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It's a game.  It's not a simualtion.  With play balance mechanisms included, and a very narrow socpe of variables, it cannot be a simulation.  For that reason, it can only give superficial insights into the period over a very small number of issues.

Frankly, I wish it were more detailed, much more detailed.  Then people could understand what it's really like to plan and conduct large military operations.  We would all be worrying about road surfaces, the capacity of railroad birdges, location of horse fodder, and myriad other details just to get food and water to the troops.  It's not just pushing a button on the headquarters box to increase supply priority.  (That's the difference between a  simulation and a game.)

Do you think anybody really decided what economic resources to produce in each city, picking among four items?

So, if you think it a simulation, go for it.  Hey, maybe pick up TOAW III and prepare youself to interview for that corps commander job in the US Army while you're at it.

It's a game.  A great game, but a game, nevertheless.

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RE: Disease - 7/3/2008 3:39:57 PM   
Joram

 

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Just a comment but I believe disease was actually toned down because too many people complained it was too strong.  Gil or eric, correct me if I'm wrong.

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RE: Disease - 7/3/2008 6:19:35 PM   
morganbj


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram

Just a comment but I believe disease was actually toned down because too many people complained it was too strong.  Gil or eric, correct me if I'm wrong.


That's correct. They increased the effectiveness of hospitals, as I recall.

Actually, I have absolutely no problem with the game as it is. Well, at last regarding the disease issue.

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RE: Disease - 7/3/2008 7:09:11 PM   
ericbabe


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It was indeed toned done quite a bit after release. We released originally with historically high disease casualties, and players hated it, so we reduced it and allowed for more ways to mitigate disease loss.

I checked many sources for disease losses and I don't think it would be right to have disease affect every unit a little bit every turn: from everything I found, disease hit particular areas over a short time, and it him some units very hard. I found regiments that took 60% losses in a single month, other regiments that would go years without reporting significant disease losses.


Since I like to read myself write, I'll share my opinions on the whole game/simulation thing....

I say: "Game" and "simulation" are just terms that denote use. A game is something you use to have fun; a simulation is something you use to solve a mathematical problem. A simulation is successful if its solutions fall within the tolerance for error of the mathematical problem. Both are subjective terms: "games" are fun or not with respect to the people playing them, Tic-Tac-Toe is not fun for me, and so it's not really a game for me; "simulations" are only simulations relative to particular mathematical problems.

I worked for the University of Michigan physics department and wrote simulations for years, so my perspective on this is colored by that: if all you care about is whether or not an electron makes it through the solenoid or not, then your simulation doesn't have to tell you its velocity when it exits, and it's still a "good simulation." If all you want to simulate about WWII is that economic power leads to strategic victory, you can set up a RISK board and it's a good simulation of WWII within the parameters specified. A standard mathematical technique I saw used over and over in physics is "assume human beings are 1 meter radius spheres of water" -- gives good results in many cases, fails spectacularly in many other cases.

Talking about wanting "a simulation" without specifying the problem(s) one is trying to solve is kind of meaningless to me. We find that players want games to simulate (1) roughly historical casualty levels from battles, (2) roughly historical battle sizes, (3) roughly historical temporal paces to the wars, (4) roughly historical mobility restrictions, (5) historical levels of economic/troop development. These seem to be the largest areas of concern. My personal standard when designing these things are comparable table games, as from SPI, GMT, AH, etc. -- that's my general level of "simulation is good enough." We can't make a model that simulates everything, so we concentrate on the largest areas of concern that people have, the areas of concern of comparable paper games. These are the "parameters of our simulation."

Similarly, I tend to judge simulations based on aggregate results, not on extreme cases. If 90% of the electrons predicted to get through the solenoid get through the solenoid, then the model is good. There will be extreme cases in any model; I just went to a very interesting talk by a military guy at Origins on mathematical models in military simulations, and as part of that talk he even mentioned that any model will have extreme cases, that military models are generally judged by the sorts of problems they solve well, not by the extreme cases that one can find to break the model.

When players find things to be unhappy about with our models, they generally point to extreme cases rather than aggregate results. This is OK, and there are always steps we can do to reduce the number of extreme cases when people point them out, but people should realize that in a big system like this there will always be some extreme cases.

If we were to try to make a mathematically rigorous simulation of, say, brigade-level supply in the Civil War -- rigorous enough for which I could make an argument in a peer-reviewed physics journal -- then it certainly wouldn't be based on a couple simple little game rules, it'd likely be a system of simultaneous differential equations. "+1 supply if adjacent to friendly territory; +2 if on a rail-line" just wouldn't cut it. We don't get paid enough to build these kinds of models , and I'm not sure that players would put up with a manual filled with differential equations even if we did (the "matrix" in Matrix Games does *not* refer to the Gauss-Jordan reduction method.) Many people find our supply rules intolerably complicated as it is now.

When our disease results were closer to historical levels, people didn't like it. One guy was arguing that the game would have a more historical "feel" if the disease levels weren't at historical levels... in none of the accounts he'd read did military commanders ever announce they were taking disease casualties into account when they were making strategic decisions, and he was having to take disease into consideration when he was making his strategic decisions. Players who critique our model rarely make mathematical arguments ("Here's the distribution of casualty percentages for every major battle of the Civil War in comparison to FOF's distribution of casualties."), they're more aesthetic arguments, "Such-and-such doesn't feel historical." We take these concerns very seriously, but they are really more arguments about "fun" (historical feeling) than they are about simulations and solving mathematical problems.

My conclusion will upset a lot of people, but it seems to me that when many people talk about wanting "simulations not games", what they're really talking about is having games with certain historical aesthetic qualities... just a different kind of fun really; they're not really critiquing a simulation in the way that a physicist or an economist would critique a simulation. I've been looking at a few boardgames lately that have gotten great acclaim from players for being "very historical" to try to figure out why people like them -- the systems they use are often very simple mathematically (draw your next reinforcement at random out of a cup), but they are designed to minimize the number of extreme cases, and they do this very well; these games are worse at solving mathematical problems, but they are better at preserving that aesthetic many people want: they are far less open-ended than other games, and the results they have are more controlled by the mechanisms of the game. I am considering using this as our criterion in future products since this technique seems to be well received when used for boardgames.




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RE: Disease - 7/4/2008 1:10:29 AM   
morganbj


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

My conclusion will upset a lot of people, but it seems to me that when many people talk about wanting "simulations not games", what they're really talking about is having games with certain historical aesthetic qualities... just a different kind of fun really; they're not really critiquing a simulation in the way that a physicist or an economist would critique a simulation. I've been looking at a few boardgames lately that have gotten great acclaim from players for being "very historical" to try to figure out why people like them -- the systems they use are often very simple mathematically (draw your next reinforcement at random out of a cup), but they are designed to minimize the number of extreme cases, and they do this very well; these games are worse at solving mathematical problems, but they are better at preserving that aesthetic many people want: they are far less open-ended than other games, and the results they have are more controlled by the mechanisms of the game. I am considering using this as our criterion in future products since this technique seems to be well received when used for boardgames.



I generally agree with this. But a simulation (they don't necessarily have to be to solve mathematical problems) has other important and crital characteristics. There is no notion that a side wins, or loses, nor can it have a single play balance mechanism. Those turn a simulation into a game.

A simulation takes known or theoretical variables and tries to reconstruct reality through modeling. The more variables, and the more discrete the measurements and the effects of their interrelationships, the closer the simulation will be to reality, especially if the variables are the most significant that affect the outcome being modeled.

That is why everything Matrix puts out is, to me, a game. The only electronic simulations I see, are things like MS Flight Simulator. Not the combat versions; those are games. One wins and loses. The combat versions are actually simulations that have been converted into a game. The old Space Sim from Microsoft is a true simulation, too. (and a darn good one at that. It forever ruined by enjoyment of space dogfights.)

So, even though FOF has a lot of good historical grounding, it simply cannot be used to accurately predict what as possible. It CAN give insight into alternate possibilities, however, identifying things that MIGHT have been possible. It's then up to the player to do additional research to see if that possibility was real, or just something allowable by the abstractions coded into the game.

That's all my point has ever been.


(in reply to ericbabe)
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