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Experiences with Mines

 
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Experiences with Mines - 5/19/2002 5:27:58 AM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		Per a request by Joel Billings in a different thread...
Matrix is looking at possible changes to how mines are handled for the patch and WITP. How about keeping all those positive and negative experiences with mines under this thread? SO if you have any applicable experiences, list 'em here!

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Post #: 1
Mines - 5/19/2002 5:29:36 AM   
Rob Roberson

 

Posts: 387
Joined: 5/1/2002
Status: offline 		do what they are suppose to harras shiping. If you don't sweep properly you get victimized. I mined Truk and nailed a light cruiser. That is what is suppose to happen. Don't change a thing.

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 2
Hmmmm... - 5/19/2002 5:47:31 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Sounds a little too effective, Rob. I'm assuming your opponent is using his MSs though. American subs, not including specialist minelayers like O'Kane's old Argonaut (is Argonaut in the game?), only loaded mines when the bases were short of torpedoes. USN sub skippers hated to have to carry them as they believed them to be a waste of time and most sinkings (if any) were not credited to the sub skipper. Makes one wonder if the use of sub laid mines is available too frequently for the player.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 3
- 5/19/2002 6:40:18 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Thanks for starting the thread on mines. Actually 2by3 is looking at this issue now, not Matrix (although Mike Wood, a Matrix employee and the person responsible for the patch, may be looking at this now as I write). I'm not trying to nit-pick, but I make the above distinction for two reasons. First, Matrix and 2by3 Games are two different companies (and different people). Don't get me wrong, we've really enjoyed working with Matrix Games and fully expect to work with them a lot in the future, and UV would not be the game that it is without all of the Matrix Games people that have worked so hard on the game. But 2by3 Games is separate and we want to develop our own identity (usually easier for a publisher than a developer).

Second, Gary and I discussed the mine situation a few days ago based on what I've been seeing in the forums and based on some of my own experiences. Based on this, we decided to make a few changes to the WitP code (Gary is currently working on this while Mike is working on the UV patch). We did not discuss this yet with Mike, but planned on having Gary and Mike talk about it to decide whether these changes should be brought over to UV. We planned on giving Mike info on how a few of the key variables function so that he can tweak them in the future (for either UV or WitP when he works on it) based on the reports he gets from players. I decided to start the ball rolling on the minefield discussion and Gary being Gary acted quickly so it's really been all 2by3 to this point. Mike at Matrix will be involved soon enough.

By the way, Mike has done a great job with UV and we have total confidence in his ability to patch UV as needed (with any needed assistance from Gary and Keith). Gary will be working on WitP full time for a little while longer, and then he will turn it over to Mike to finish (with Gary's continued guidance) so Gary can move on to the next project. The UV project was a true blending of talents from both 2by3 and Matrix. Something hard to do, but when it works, the product usually turns out to be something special.

So with that said, please keep discussing the minefields.

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 4
I know.. - 5/19/2002 6:45:46 AM   
vils

 

Posts: 251
Joined: 1/11/2002
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		I find it very hard not knowing if my minelayers is acually laying mines or not, or removing enemy mines or even detecting enemy mines .. more hex info on this!

Add a command as >lay mines and then pick a destination hex for the TF to execute the command at.

Also, would be nice to see how many friendly mines there are in a hex.

/vils

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Take Command! - Lewis E. Lyle

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 5
mine symbols - 5/19/2002 6:56:04 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, so far i have found mines to interesting without having a major impact. the 4 ships I had strike mines would not have done so if I had been correctly using my minesweepers (no ones fault but mine) still I like them if for no other reason then it adds flavour (and a reason for those interesting little minesweepers and layers)
vils, to lay mines with a Minelayer create minewarfare TF (with a minelayer) then move it to the hex you want it to mine. watch the screen you will get 2 messages. The first is TF will move to hex XX YY the second TF will lay mines in hex XX YY (the hex you selected to move to)
To clear mines create a minewarfare TF with minesweepers, as this TF moves it will clear a path, if there are enough minesweepers it will clear the hex.
Putting a MS in Transport TF's the minesweeper will clear a path
It's simple, fun and interesting. I don't think it will alter the course of the war (unless of course one sinks a CV or something) But I like it, (Having them is the Grognard thing to do):eek:

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 6
- 5/19/2002 7:12:28 AM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		Can mines be laid anywhere, or is it restricted to realistic limitations on water depth?

For that matter, is there an actual "value" or distinction in the game between coastal water hexes and deep sea hexes? I'd think that this distinction would impact all mine/countermine, coastal type SC/PT boat, submarine "defense" against depth charging, and barge seaworthiness.

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 7
- 5/19/2002 7:27:40 AM   
dgaad

 

Posts: 864
Joined: 7/25/2001
From: Hockeytown
Status: offline 		Folks, listen up.

First of all, in all the time I've played since I got the game I've seen 3 ships strike mines, including a light carrier. Overall, that seems pretty normal, considering the following :

1. I lay alot of mines.

2. The enemy has used minesweepers to sweep only once that I can tell. If they used more, there would have been less hits.

3. The game code probably does not account for hostile waters sailing procedure. If a fleet was travelling through waters that had some reasonable probablity of being mined in the first place they wouldn't take that course. The game pathing code does move ships around known minefields. However, when going through hostile waters typically light ships like destroyers would break the path so that the heavier ships were less vulnerable to mines.


I don't recommend that any changes be made to the current mine strike probabilities.

I do think that AI should be more aggressive in terms of looking for and removing mines.

If a fleet is travelling through a hex and it identifies a mine there before a ship is struck (and if the code for this kind of development does not exist, it should -- fleets with minesweepers much more likely to identify before a strike, controlled for experience and other relevant variables like day or night, etc. ), then the fleet should lose some movement, while the probabilty for a strike goes down.

EDIT NOTE : whenever coding, of course, and adding parameters or variables, research should determine the various national doctrines and make one side or the other more aggressive or effective at a) sweeping, b) detecting and c) laying mines.

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 8
Exactly - 5/19/2002 7:43:55 AM   
Rob Roberson

 

Posts: 387
Joined: 5/1/2002
Status: offline 		Dgaad. If anything I would recommend the AI laying more mines in enemy waters. Currently my MSW sit in port for lack of anything better to do. I am very agressive laying mines the AI is not. I did notice that the Japanese minesweepers are doing their job now off of Truck (and in the slot) where I have been leaving them gift packages. Again, this is not ahistorical in anyway. As long as the weapons of the era are in the game, then I as the player should be able to use them.

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 9
- 5/19/2002 3:08:22 PM   
sbond

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 4/4/2000
From: USA
Status: offline 		I love the mines, the Empire kept sending its ships through Giji Giji on their attack runs on Port Morseby (sorry for spelling ). Well I finally sent the Argonaut in there and she laid 30 mines at the Giji port. A couple of days later 1 CA 1 CL 1 PG 1 DD ran into these mines :). Was a nice little surprise to the game and adds a ton of flavor. I tried using the surface ships early on to get into these places and mine but they kept getting jumped by the bombers. The Argonaut worked great and is currently heading to Rabual to leave a few presents...

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Post #: 10
- 5/19/2002 9:22:51 PM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		How much damage does a mine generally do when a ship hits one?

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 11
- 5/19/2002 9:42:37 PM   
dgaad

 

Posts: 864
Joined: 7/25/2001
From: Hockeytown
Status: offline 		sbond : that is a great Hitlerian quote. Where did you get it?

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Last time I checked, the forums were messed up. ;)

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 12
- 5/19/2002 10:30:31 PM   
osros

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 5/3/2002
Status: offline 		juliet7bravo,

I just started laying mines, and yes they do work well, a good chance of getting a hit.

Im not sure the numbers of mine damage cause I have not been hit by one yet. But it depends on the ship size. A small ship hit one of my mines & it got heavy damage.

Well placed mines can scorce several hits on a TF. May be enough to cause light - moderate damage, or finish off
already damaged ships.

Japs > I see our port, We made it! Saki for everyone! Praise the
raising sun!

Then..... BOOM!!



:D

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 13
Mine Laying - 5/19/2002 10:35:34 PM   
Point Luck

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: East Coast-US
Status: offline 		I think the mines should be as much a part of this game as the aircraft carrier. If anything a little more intel on mine laying/sweeping ops. Maybe a way of tagging a hex where mines have been encountered. I don’t expect much in the way of damage to enemy shipping as I expect to add one more dimension my opponents war plans. A little more aggression on the AI would be interesting. Also allied forces laid a lot of mines by aircraft just to tie up IJN shipping lanes.

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 14
- 5/20/2002 12:52:47 AM   
sbond

 

Posts: 926
Joined: 4/4/2000
From: USA
Status: offline 		Hi Dgaad,

You can find that quote in almost all books of political quotes. I think I read it in Kershaws book to about Hitlers Life and the Third Reich.

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Post #: 15
I got one!!! - 5/20/2002 9:29:33 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, My mines finally got an enemy ship. After being damaged in surface battle at Lunga a USN DD struck a mine in the channel east of Lunga and sank.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to madflava13)
Post #: 16
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