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French commandos have british ranks and uniforms

 
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French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/20/2009 5:18:39 AM   
7A_Bjorn

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 10/29/2008
Status: offline 		French commandos on Ouistreham have british ranks and looks like british uniforms.
Post #: 1
RE: French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/20/2009 5:46:13 AM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline 		French Commandos were trained by the British Commandos.  They used British uniforms and equipment.
Edit: They were part of No. 10 (Inter-Allied) Commando, but were attached to No. 4 Commando in Normandy.

I'm not sure about the medals though...should Free French troops receive French Medals or British Medals?


< Message edited by squadleader_id -- 5/20/2009 6:02:14 AM >

(in reply to 7A_Bjorn)
Post #: 2
RE: French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/21/2009 10:03:32 AM   
samarobriva

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		French Commandos used French ranks and French medals

see http://commandos-fnfl.ifrance.com/Pge%20Badge.htm

(in reply to squadleader_id)
Post #: 3
RE: French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/21/2009 10:22:34 AM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline 		Nice link, samarobriva!
Looks like they're using French Naval ranks from those uniforms & patches pics.
I've also seen some photos of No. 10 (Inter-Allied) Commando troops using British ranks though.

Another fix candidate for the patch?


(in reply to samarobriva)
Post #: 4
RE: French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/21/2009 12:05:32 PM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		I've seen the French commandos with that gear at Dieppe.

And I;ve seen French commandos on D-Day with standard Brit commando insignia.......


the plot thickens

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Post #: 5
RE: French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/21/2009 1:00:15 PM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline 		http://www.alliedforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=1604



commander Philippe Kieffer


Reenactment photos:




(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 6
RE: French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/24/2009 12:08:49 PM   
samarobriva

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		Some 15 Free French took part in Dieppe.
Only one was killed. Second Maître Serge Moutaillier

Here is the list who took part into the operation

lieutenant Françis VOURCH
quartier-maitre Georges ROPERT
matelot Gabriel LOVERINI
quartier-maître Maurice CESAR
second maître Serge MOUTAILLIER
second-maitre Raymond de WANDELAER

second-maitre Raymond DUMANOIR
matelot Jean SIMON
matelot Georges JEAN
quartier-maitre Jean ERRARD
quartier maître René RABOUHANS

matelot Pierre TANNIOU
matelot Ange BORRETINI
quartier maitre René TAVERNE
second maître Francis BALOCHE




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 7
RE: French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/24/2009 12:14:26 PM   
samarobriva

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		Here a photo from capitaine Charles Trépel in July 1943.

Note the green béret were given a few weeks after the Dieppe operation. So the reenactment photos are wrong




Attachment (1)

(in reply to samarobriva)
Post #: 8
RE: French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/24/2009 12:42:28 PM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline 		Actually those are reenactment photos of D-Day landings at Ouisterham...that's why the Commandos are marching off the beach
So what's the verdict on historical French Commandos ranks on D-Day? French Naval ranks instead of British ranks?


< Message edited by squadleader_id -- 5/24/2009 12:48:49 PM >

(in reply to samarobriva)
Post #: 9
RE: French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/24/2009 4:56:36 PM   
RD Oddball

 

Posts: 4836
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline 		Fantastic info guys!!!   PLEASE, Keep it coming.  We're close.

I'll ask Steve if he had research to support what we've presented.  I think the assumption that they would've worn British ranks and uniforms was consistent with the policies of the Commonwealth Army.  Knowing their perspective on creating unity through consistent presentation and their strict overall approach organization therein I'd be surprised if any exceptions were made.  Likely few and probably given as reward for valor.

Without a photograph that is dated in the caption showing French commandos at Normandy with both left and right shoulders clearly displayed we'll have to leave them as is.  So that's what you're looking for.  Photographs from reinactors are the equivalent of using CC as proof of historical events.  Not proof of anything despite their attention to detail.  Also photographs from other theaters or operations is not proof as well since things could've changed from month to month.  i.e. 1942 to 1944.  Two years is an eternity in the WWII timeline.

I'd be interested in seeing a full translation of the entire page samabrovia posted if anyone is interested.  I don't trust the online translator pages.  Too many opportunities for errors and every detail is important here.

*edit*
Also, lets not forget we're talking about the shirt type (color, cloth type) and rank type. It's HIGHLY likely the French commandos used the same exact shirt type and rank types as the rest of the Commonwealth forces. So far the only thing presented that is clearly discernable on this page shows patches. Without a side by side, confirmed comparison between standard Commonwealth shirt type and a supposed French Commando shirt type we have to assume they were the same. None of this has anything to do with ranks. There are no plans to change the patches since the inclusion of the French Commandos with the British 3rd ID was an abstraction put into place by us.



< Message edited by RD_Oddball -- 5/24/2009 5:07:36 PM >

(in reply to squadleader_id)
Post #: 10
RE: French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/24/2009 9:05:51 PM   
samarobriva

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		Here a better information
http://www.netmarine.net/forces/commando/histocommando/178jourj.htm

This comes from the first two paragraph

The commando training was provided by the British army. "Infantry Army" ranks were used in official reports, except those designed for the Naval Forces of France Libre (FNFL), who jealously guarded the designations for a Marine unit, about one-third could come from other groups.

The French, in addition to the badge "France" at the top of the shoulder were wearing their ranks: From Second Maître (Sgt)on black epaulettes; From Matelot (Private) to Quartier-maître (L/Sgt) their grade was shown by a small piece of lace sewn to the jacket between the 2nd and 3rd button.



The uniform is Commonwealth battle-dress 1937 or 1942, Field Service Marchind Order 1937,

http://commandokieffer.canalblog.com/ That page has most of the pictures from the commandos. It includes a picture from the uniform in june 1944 roughly at middle of the page. To get it search for "Sans le savoir, en 1956-1957 nous portions les mêmes blousons" (remove brackets) which means without knowing it we were wearing the same kind of shirt in 1956-1957

Then to see pictures from that period do a search with "IMG 70" (remove brackets). It seems that during combat they wear no ranks while in ceremony they do wear french ranks.

(in reply to RD Oddball)
Post #: 11
RE: French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/24/2009 9:26:56 PM   
Andrew Williams


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From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

small piece of lace sewn to the jacket between the 2nd and 3rd button.



I've seen this on the front of the shirt at a diagonal.... maybe that was what they wore into battle and the shoulder ranks during ceremony like the picture below of commander Philippe Kieffer.

(in reply to samarobriva)
Post #: 12
RE: French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/24/2009 9:56:22 PM   
samarobriva

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

Same soldier but no ranks from what I see


That one with Monty and Kieffer clearly show ranks either on Kieffer shoulders as on soldiers in the back



quote:

I've seen this on the front of the shirt at a diagonal.... maybe that was what they wore into battle and the shoulder ranks during ceremony like the picture below of commander Philippe Kieffer.


My guess is that they removed any information while on combat.
It is clearly stated that from the rank of Sgt/Major or Premier maître up to Major or Capitaine de corvette the rank is shown on the shoulder. Lower ranks have had their ranks between the 2 nd and 3rd button.

From all the french sites on Kieffer they all stated that the only ranks that were used are the french ones. French pride !!

(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 13
RE: French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/24/2009 10:12:32 PM   
PztRonson

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 5/8/2009
Status: offline 		Maybe this would be of interest, a few photos of French commandos of the era.
http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/10IA/

The shoulder ranks shown worn by commander Kieffer in the earlier photo look like slip-ons, which would most likely have been removed in battle, as they provided a very visable indication for enemy snipers.

During the Normandy campaign the British forces soon learned to discard badges, and other signs of rank, pistols, map cases etc. when in action, for this reason.

(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 14
RE: French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/25/2009 2:36:15 AM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline 		From Osprey - Elite 142 -  No.10 (Inter Allied) Commando 1942-45:





From Osprey Men-at-Arms 238 Foreign Volunteers of the Allied Forces 1939-45:


Looks to me The French Commandos did use French Naval ranks in Normany...and not British stripes and officer pips.
I'll see if I can whip up some new ranks graphics (maybe for a small submod)...but I'll need help with the French Naval ranks chart compared to the CC ranks chart.
The ranks worn between the 2nd and 3rd button might look strange when translated to CC ranks gadgets though.
French medals too? How about using the French medals from Meuse mod?



(in reply to PztRonson)
Post #: 15
RE: French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/25/2009 3:06:08 AM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline 		More photos from Osprey Elite 142...but unfortunately without clear shots of rank insignias.
Edit: Oops...of course you can't see any ranks...most of the Commandos in the photos are privates...and they also discarded their ranks in combat




< Message edited by squadleader_id -- 5/25/2009 4:43:02 AM >

(in reply to squadleader_id)
Post #: 16
RE: French commandos have british ranks and uniforms - 5/26/2009 1:37:53 PM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline 		OK...here's my first attempt...I hope my French Naval ranks chart translation to CC ranks chart isn't too far off









(in reply to squadleader_id)
Post #: 17
French medals... - 5/27/2009 6:26:52 AM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline 		...and French Medals from CC5 Meuse mod.





(in reply to squadleader_id)
Post #: 18
RE: French medals... - 5/27/2009 10:31:28 PM   
RD Oddball

 

Posts: 4836
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline 		RE: research - Works for me!  Nice work guys!!

Nice work on the graphics Squadleader_ID.  Send them if you want me to include those in addition to your Brit AB ranks.  Thanks!!!

(in reply to squadleader_id)
Post #: 19
RE: French medals... - 5/28/2009 2:29:48 AM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RD_Oddball

RE: research - Works for me!  Nice work guys!!

Nice work on the graphics Squadleader_ID.  Send them if you want me to include those in addition to your Brit AB ranks.  Thanks!!!


Will do, Oddball...check your e-mail

(in reply to RD Oddball)
Post #: 20
RE: French medals... - 5/29/2009 3:55:27 AM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline 		I think I made a mistake with the rank chart translation for Quartier-maître...here's the revised version.
For ranks worn between the 2nd and 3rd button for the lower ranks...I tried a few designs but haven't found the right look that fit CC ranks gadget graphics limitations...so for now the Quartier-maître ranks will be on the shoulders (there are some photos/pics of these) while private/ensign/matelot ranks are represented with standard shoulder/arm without ranks.

...any input or suggestions?





(in reply to squadleader_id)
Post #: 21
RE: French medals... - 5/29/2009 10:17:56 PM   
samarobriva

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		The Maître principal rank, the one 5th from the right looks too thick and appears to be bigger than a lieutenant.
From Matelot to Quartier maître ranks are on the front not on the shoulder: see the picture



(in reply to squadleader_id)
Post #: 22
RE: French medals... - 5/29/2009 11:00:52 PM   
Senior Drill


Posts: 199
Joined: 11/21/2007
From: Quantico
Status: offline 		Most everyone is going to get that red X image. To view the image, right click on the red X and select "Properties" from the drop down menu. Highlight the URL, right click and select "Copy". Close the Properties dialog.

Paste that into your browser address bar and press the Enter key. When done, use the back button to return to the forum. The image will appear in the post for this browser session. If you close your browser and reopen it and navigate back to this forum, it may well be a red X again, depending on your settings.

Many websites do not allow direct linking to images or content on their webpages to limit bandwidth usage. It is often better to provide a link to the website and webpage that the image resides on in post on the forums. It generates traffic for that site, gives a defacto source credit and avoids any misuse of terms of agreement or copyright infingement issues.

'Course, hosting the image on one's own webspace is always an option, but it is not playing fair unless the origin link is included along with the pic.

Samarobriva, a 10 second time out penalty in the corner of a room at a time and place of your convenience!

_____________________________

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

(in reply to samarobriva)
Post #: 23
RE: French medals... - 5/30/2009 12:29:58 AM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: samarobriva

The Maître principal rank, the one 5th from the right looks too thick and appears to be bigger than a lieutenant.
From Matelot to Quartier maître ranks are on the front not on the shoulder: see the picture





Thanks for the correction, samarobriva...will fix the Maitre principal rank.
I'm glad the ranks chart translation isn't off *phew*

About the ranks on the front...I haven't figured out a design that I like (due to the limitations of the small CC ranks gadget graphics).
But I was thinking of the pic below...is this non standard?


Also the rank patch worn in the front in the photo is the same style as the pics from the Osprey books...but this one is using the 'standard' French Naval version...which is the historical one? Well I guess the rank seen on the photo is the historical ones...the same design as the pics in the Osprey books.




< Message edited by squadleader_id -- 5/30/2009 1:34:49 AM >

(in reply to samarobriva)
Post #: 24
RE: French medals... - 5/30/2009 1:30:25 AM   
Nembo


Posts: 251
Joined: 10/25/2006
Status: offline 		Look really good squadleader, you could probably even fit the France and commando name patches on the upper sleeve.

(in reply to squadleader_id)
Post #: 25
RE: French medals... - 5/30/2009 1:44:51 AM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nembo

Look really good squadleader, you could probably even fit the France and commando name patches on the upper sleeve.


Thanks, Nembo!
The thing is there's abstractions in CC ranks graphics...usually all other patches and insignias are not shown...only ranks.
Divisional Patches and other insignias are also usually ommited. British parachute badge are not shown on the current CCTLD Brit Para ranks.
So...should we include France Commando unit insignias on these rank designs? And maybe Para badges for the Brit/Canadian Paras?

(in reply to Nembo)
Post #: 26
RE: French medals... - 5/30/2009 11:43:08 AM   
samarobriva

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id

quote:

ORIGINAL: samarobriva

The Maître principal rank, the one 5th from the right looks too thick and appears to be bigger than a lieutenant.
From Matelot to Quartier maître ranks are on the front not on the shoulder: see the picture





Thanks for the correction, samarobriva...will fix the Maitre principal rank.
I'm glad the ranks chart translation isn't off *phew*

About the ranks on the front...I haven't figured out a design that I like (due to the limitations of the small CC ranks gadget graphics).
But I was thinking of the pic below...is this non standard?

Yes things aren't correct. It gives a rough idea on how it should be. But if you pay attention to the picture you may notice many disturbing facts that may tell you that somethings are in fact "fresh" Like the parachute, the Croix de Lorraine, the ranks on the shoulder. Furthermore the legend says that it belongs to a Matelot==> one red strip
On the drawing, ranks are incorrectly drawn thanks to Photoshop cut and paste and stretch. What you see is what is put on sleeves.
Here is a zoom in on Rabouhans' picture (that's his name)
See the stripes are horizontal. The Osprey image of the K gunner is also correct !!!

The béret is incorrectly worn. In reality it will just fall.






< Message edited by samarobriva -- 5/30/2009 11:47:58 AM >

(in reply to squadleader_id)
Post #: 27
RE: French medals... - 5/30/2009 12:21:00 PM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks for the input!
I'll work out a design for the 2 lower ranks.
The rank patches (colors and bars) will be based on the Osprey book illustrations.
So it's 1 bar/stripe for Matelot and 2 bars/stripes for Quartier maître 2nd Class...or should I skip directly to 3 bars/stripes of Quartier maître 1st Class?  There are only 2 slots available in the CC ranks gadgets.



(in reply to samarobriva)
Post #: 28
RE: French medals... - 5/30/2009 12:47:03 PM   
samarobriva

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		Quartier maître is the first real rank. I'll say that you may skip the first rank as it is for common soldier. So if I understand correctly it will be blank, two red strips, three red strips and so on ?

(in reply to squadleader_id)
Post #: 29
RE: French medals... - 5/30/2009 12:55:28 PM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: samarobriva

Quartier maître is the first real rank. I'll say that you may skip the first rank as it is for common soldier. So if I understand correctly it will be blank, two red strips, three red strips and so on ?


For standard CC ranks chart...the first rank is for private.
From the chart I already made, I wanted to change the first 2 ranks ( 1st and 2nd ranks from the right in the pics I posted) to Matelot (1 red strip) and either Quartier maître 2nd Class or 1st Class.
So...1 red strip, then 2 red strips (or 3 red strips).

(in reply to samarobriva)
Post #: 30
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