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General Questions - 7/25/2009 5:23:50 PM

RandomAttack

Posts: 235
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Arizona
Status: offline

Hi All!
Recently purchased this game, and I'm really enjoying it but there are a few things I just don't get. I'm a long-time player of computer wargames of all types. Maybe it's clear to RtW folks(?), but it's new to me. I haven't gone TOO far into a campaign game as it seems a waste until I figure some things out.

- Understand German troops bordering France are "frozen", but what are the parameters? Do they ever get released? Under what conditions? (Both test games France attacks and I can do nothing...)

- How can I determine the state of Air Superiority in a given area?

Comments:
- Even after hotfix my air units are taking a pounding, even when attacking weak units. Doesn't seem cost effective at all.
- The Naval aspect of the game is still largely a mystery to me. I never have ANY idea what enemy forces are where, etc. I'm sure there is a method to the madness here but it just seems almost random to me no matter what I do.
- To get a country to surrender you must occupy all VP locations, but France has just one (or two?) on the continent, and a BUNCH in North Africa. Assume that is to encourage acceptance of the Vichy option? Which I haven't got to as I haven't made it that far yet-- which brings me to...
- Would be nice to have a list of all these options and what they mean! Most are cryptic and give no idea whether there is a real effect, etc. For example, from reading in forum apparently Vichy is a recurring one, but I assume the Ribbentrop Pact is a one-time deal. How in the world is the player supposed to know that?

Again, this is a great effort that I'm largely pleased with. I even like the decison-events in theory. But it's frustrating as I feel I'm making these decisions mostly in the dark, with only a vague idea as to short-term (and virtually no idea whether there are any long-term) implications.
Thanks!

Post #: 1

RE: General Questions - 7/25/2009 6:57:50 PM

cpdeyoung

Posts: 5368
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: South Carolina, USA
Status: offline

I will try to answer some of your questions.

I usually bring "veteran" units from Poland to the West very soon after Warsaw falls, and these allow an attack on the Netherlands pretty quickly. More troops allow Luxembourg and Belgium to be attacked, and at some point the French will react, and their actions will cause the release of your troops. I would love to see an event that any unit attacked directly is released, but that is not there yet.

Air superiority is not a "thing", rather it is judgement, in retrospect of how things go in your attacks and defense. It you are getting wiped, they have superiority, if they are devastated then you have it. If you need more success than you are having then bring more aircraft within 20 hexes of where you need said success. Build them back up after losses, and gain tech levels ASAP. Notice the pattern of interceptions and attacks, and pull your air units out if things are really bad. Interception by your forces is your friend, and can gradually turn things around. Air units are less expensive than in RtV, and you can buy more if needed.

Sea power is not just about ships firing on one another. You should remember the concept of a "fleet in being", wherein simply sitting in port as a threat gains a strategic advantage. In general watch your "red line" carefully and send your best ships out, holdng damaged ships back until you can repair them. Strategically the British must control the seas around Great Britain, and want to control the Med, and North Atlantic too. If the French Navy is around, let them fight as much as possible as France may leave the war at some point. Another side of this is that a French ship sinking in the good fight will never be a potential enemy in the Vichy fleet. If you have a sea zone you must clear of raiders then keep as strong a presence there as possible, and be patient. An enemy ship sunk is better than damaging two. Do not spread your ships over all sea zones, and move them from one important zone to another, keeping the enemy guessing. Use the air attacks, new to ToW, a lot, as they are very effective. In zones subject to enemy air attack, use subs.

Just some very general thoughts, and others may certainly have other opinions.

Chuck

(in reply to RandomAttack)

Post #: 2

RE: General Questions - 7/25/2009 8:22:40 PM

RandomAttack

Posts: 235
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Arizona
Status: offline

Thanks Chuck!
- Got it on air superiority now-- way some folks described it just seemed like you could concretely determine the status.
- France always attacks me well before Poland falls-- but guess I can spare a few units to calm them down a bit.
- Sea Power will just be trial & error for me I guess. I understand the strategy perfectly, just can't figure out the mechanism(s) to actually execute it.

(in reply to cpdeyoung)

Post #: 3

RE: General Questions - 7/25/2009 9:48:00 PM

borsook79

Posts: 477
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RandomAttack

Thanks Chuck!
- Got it on air superiority now-- way some folks described it just seemed like you could concretely determine the status.
- France always attacks me well before Poland falls-- but guess I can spare a few units to calm them down a bit.
- Sea Power will just be trial & error for me I guess.� I understand the strategy perfectly, just can't figure out the mechanism(s) to actually execute it.

Yes, there is something like air superiority over a given hex in the game, have a look at sections 7.2 and 7.2.1 in the manual.

(in reply to RandomAttack)

Post #: 4

RE: General Questions - 7/26/2009 2:57:01 AM

RandomAttack

Posts: 235
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Arizona
Status: offline

They describe how it is calculated-- but there doesn't seem to be any mechanism for the PLAYER to determine what it is (to perhaps help determine whether or not to risk an attack, etc.).

(in reply to borsook79)

Post #: 5

RE: General Questions - 7/26/2009 3:50:57 AM

Frandoxxx

Posts: 61
Joined: 12/22/2007
From: Denver, Colorado
Status: offline

Why is there no list to all the events and what they mean? It drives me crazy. For example, what is the "work, work, work" thing all about?

(in reply to RandomAttack)

Post #: 6

RE: General Questions - 7/26/2009 4:08:31 AM

Chocolino

Posts: 2095
Joined: 2/14/2009
Status: offline

Hello RandomAttack,

most questions have been answered already above - and better than I could have.

I just wanted to mention that in my opinion it adds quite a bit to the flavor of the game not to know the exact status of enemy air force and naval deployment beforehand. I imagine this is a bit like in real life where you also have only scant knowledge about oppontents dispositions initially until you have made some probing moves.(FoW)

In both cases (naval and air) the outcome of battles will tell you approximately how much is deployed by the opponent where. And yes, it can shift constantly.

Re naval model:

The computer allocates some units of the opposing navies for individual battles each turn if they are in the same sea zone. The individual units chosen appear to be random but the proportion of units allocated is somewhat in line with the overall deployment. But not all units participate in each battle. To give you an example: say of your 5 units in the North Sea 3 participate in a battle and your opponent has twice as many in the battle, you can be pretty sure that he has deployed much more in this sea zone than you. But you don't know exactly how many.

The consequence is very straightforward. If you want to get control of a sea zone you have to have more units there and repair damage constantly by rotating damaged ships in and repaired ones out of ports. ToW adds the feature of air attacks on navies. I am not yet sure how effective this is. But it adds to the complexity of choices.

Key is that navies control supply that has to cross sea zones. (e.g. Italians across the Med to N. Africa) If you need to supply an invasion force through an enemy controlled sea zone, you are in trouble and loose many STP and your units overseas can be temporarily unsupplied and weak. That can be disasterous and STPs are expensive, too. (Most effective here are enemy "raiders" instead of "battle formations").

Wrote much more than I initially wanted. Sorry. In summary, the naval model is very adequate for a European theater game.

(in reply to RandomAttack)

Post #: 7

RE: General Questions - 7/26/2009 5:15:48 AM

RandomAttack

Posts: 235
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Arizona
Status: offline

Chocolino,
Thanks for the explanation. I still think it is unnecessarily "foggy", but that is just my opinion. I have no real issue with air power, was just trying to clarify the superiority issue. My problem with naval is that you have no real idea of even the potential enemy naval force-- it's not a matter of exact number, you don't even have an "order of magnitude". Given the "semi-randomness" of which fleets actually engage in a given battle, I think there would be no loss of fidelity if all fleets were visible in sea zones. Or maybe even the number of ships (not type).

Right now, I'm going on pure guesswork. There literally seems no way to recon this (or am I missing something?). Do the Brits have 5 carriers & 20 other ships in a sea zone? None at all? Surely this is FOW taken to an extreme.

(in reply to Chocolino)

Post #: 8

RE: General Questions - 7/26/2009 6:00:05 AM

Chocolino

Posts: 2095
Joined: 2/14/2009
Status: offline

Yes, I agree. It is on the foggy side of the spectrum and I understand that not everybody likes that.

The following is just an experience I have made over the course of a few games and not meaning to say that you shouldn't feel as you do: But after playing both sides a few times you know what your opponents approximately can have - give or take. You also know what you need to deploy to be competitive. Once you go after navel control in a sea zone and put your ships out to sea it does not matter where the enemy is. If they challenge you right away, fine. If not, you still control that important sea zone.

Also since players can move ships constantly from one sea zone to the next, intelligence and sighting reports are outdated very quickly. (they should outlaw those constant UK naval movements ....)

I have played other games where you could invest in better intelligence as a research activity and as a result increase your level of knowledge. That may be an option here for future versions.

(in reply to RandomAttack)

Post #: 9

RE: General Questions - 7/26/2009 1:06:18 PM

cpdeyoung

Posts: 5368
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: South Carolina, USA
Status: offline

Chocolino is right about the sense of enemy potential gained by gaming the naval side a few times. It would be nice to have a naval OOB available, and would not violate FoW since ship development and construction was revealed by espionage more often than not. The Japanese were perhaps the most concerned about security for their programs, and tried hard to keep their specifications secret. It would be nice to have a map display which showed where all identified vessels were in previous turns. This could show patterns and help you make predictions.

Relative to the actual war, there tends to be more battle in European waters than actually occured, but this is fun, and probably within the bounds of "might have been". The Germans knew their losses would be terrible in any pitched battle with the RN, and were conservative, except for operations in the Norwegian campaign, when they were very aggressive, and took horrible losses. In ToW the naval side is perhaps the most wild and crazy part of the game from a historical view.

Chuck

(in reply to Chocolino)

Post #: 10

RE: General Questions - 7/26/2009 1:12:34 PM

PDiFolco

Posts: 1200
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline

OOBs are badly needed for all types of units, currently you don't even get *your own* OOB ! I also concur that on the naval side enemy OOBs were fairly much known by all sides - you could keep secret the exact armor or guns on a BB, but everyone knew you were building a BB !

(in reply to cpdeyoung)

Post #: 11

RE: General Questions - 7/26/2009 2:23:52 PM

borsook79

Posts: 477
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RandomAttack

Chocolino,
Thanks for the explanation.� I still think it is unnecessarily "foggy", but that is just my opinion.� I have no real issue with air power, was just trying to clarify the superiority issue.� My problem with naval is that you have no real idea of even the potential enemy naval force-- it's not a matter of exact number, you don't even have an "order of magnitude".� Given the "semi-randomness" of which fleets actually engage in a given battle, I think there would be no loss of fidelity if all fleets were visible in sea zones.� Or maybe even the number of ships (not type).

Right now, I'm going on pure guesswork.� There literally seems no way to recon this (or am I missing something?).� Do the Brits have 5 carriers & 20 other ships in a sea zone? None at all?� Surely this is FOW taken to an extreme.

I do not know if it's good or bad, but you can check this number by "combat recon" i.e. if you start strategic bombardment against the hex you will see the value there. So you will know after the first bombing. Knowing that beforehand would allow you to calculate more or less precisely the number of enemy air units in range, FOW should not allow you for that.

(in reply to RandomAttack)

Post #: 12

RE: General Questions - 7/26/2009 2:37:05 PM

borsook79

Posts: 477
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco

OOBs are badly needed for all types of units, currently you don't even get *your own* OOB ! I also concur that on the naval side enemy OOBs were fairly much known by all sides - you could keep secret the exact armor or guns on a BB, but everyone knew you were building a BB !

Typically you're right, but it does not mean it was impossible to keep building a BB secret, rather that most countries actually boasted about this. :)

(in reply to PDiFolco)

Post #: 13

RE: General Questions - 7/26/2009 3:06:52 PM

cpdeyoung

Posts: 5368
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: South Carolina, USA
Status: offline

As soon as the game settles down a bit I have a utility which allows you to examine OOB data, including naval. I use it to see where I am in the naming scheme, as I like to name my units in various ways as I produce them. I wrote it for RtV, but will check it out for ToW when I get a chance. It also allows pulling the VP cities and some other data. I also have an editor for CSV files which recognises the semicolon delimiter and I will work this up for production too. If a couple of you want to test them I can send them as they get worked up.

Chuck

(in reply to borsook79)

Post #: 14

RE: General Questions - 7/26/2009 4:48:15 PM

RandomAttack

Posts: 235
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chocolino

Yes, I agree. It is on the foggy side of the spectrum and I understand that not everybody likes that.

The following is just an experience I have made over the course of a few games and not meaning to say that you shouldn't feel as you do: But after playing both sides a few times you know what your opponents approximately can have - give or take. You also know what you need to deploy to be competitive. Once you go after navel control in a sea zone and put your ships out to sea it does not matter where the enemy is. If they challenge you right away, fine. If not, you still control that important sea zone.

Also since players can move ships constantly from one sea zone to the next, intelligence and sighting reports are outdated very quickly. (they should outlaw those constant UK naval movements ....)

I have played other games where you could invest in better intelligence as a research activity and as a result increase your level of knowledge. That may be an option here for future versions.

I guess that's the crux of it for me-- I don't WANT to have to play several games just to get an idea of what kind of enemy naval forces exist.

I love campaigns, and to get just 30 turns or so into one and essentially need to restart because I couldn't reasonably anticipate some absurdly large force slinking in and devastating my fleet just ruins it for me.
I like the sea zone concept, just not the "total" lack of intel. At this point, as Germans I find myself playing to circumvent Naval rather than treating it as a fun part of the game: Just take Denmark as quickly as possible to close off the Baltic, disband all my surface ships and just play around with subs (but with no real hope of success). I would much prefer Naval along the lines of GG:WatW. I don't mind "abstract"-- but it just feels too much like rolling dice, blindfolded, in the fog, at night, etc.

(in reply to Chocolino)

Post #: 15

RE: General Questions - 7/26/2009 5:33:08 PM

PDiFolco

Posts: 1200
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline

RandomAttack,
In fact your German Naval strategy, however frustating it may be, is *the same* than what the Kriegsmarine did starting in '41... German Hochseeflotte (high sea fleet) was mostly sunk with some useless survivors (like the Tirpitz), and only subs and small shore craft (torp boats) remained.

(in reply to RandomAttack)

Post #: 16