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I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/3/2021 8:39:31 PM

Tanaka

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Lots of ship collisions. Any advantages? What seems to be the optimal task force size without negatives? More specifically air combat and surface/bombardment task forces...

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/3/2021 8:54:23 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Lots of ship collisions. Any advantages? What seems to be the optimal task force size without negatives? More specifically air combat and surface/bombardment task forces...

I like 2-4 DD types, or 2-4 usually older Cls with one DD type per Cl, 4 CAs or heavy* CLs with 2-4 DDs per cruiser. 2-4 BBs with 2-4 DD type vessels per BB. No more than 12 ships per SCTF.

*Brooklyn, Helena, and Cleveland classes as well as appropriate Commonwealth classes. I mean, can you imagine 4 of those with 8 Fletchers? Think if they found a Japanese CV TF!

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/3/2021 9:18:00 PM

rustysi

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As a JFB I run a number of 25 ship TF's bringing 'stuff' back to the HI. I have had a few collisions, but not enough to worry about. IIRC I think one of the keys is to have a decent convoy leader, you know one with good naval skills.

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/3/2021 9:36:07 PM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

As a JFB I run a number of 25 ship TF's bringing 'stuff' back to the HI. I have had a few collisions, but not enough to worry about. IIRC I think one of the keys is to have a decent convoy leader, you know one with good naval skills.

Ok but what about Air/Surface? Seems to only be ok for transports...

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 8/4/2021 7:21:32 AM >

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/3/2021 9:36:56 PM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Lots of ship collisions. Any advantages? What seems to be the optimal task force size without negatives? More specifically air combat and surface/bombardment task forces...

I like 2-4 DD types, or 2-4 usually older Cls with one DD type per Cl, 4 CAs or heavy* CLs with 2-4 DDs per cruiser. 2-4 BBs with 2-4 DD type vessels per BB. No more than 12 ships per SCTF.

*Brooklyn, Helena, and Cleveland classes as well as appropriate Commonwealth classes. I mean, can you imagine 4 of those with 8 Fletchers? Think if they found a Japanese CV TF!

Yeah so about half the 25 thanks...

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/3/2021 9:41:49 PM

Nomad

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I run size 25 ACTFs all the time with no problems. Make sure your TF commander has a good Naval Rating( plus air rating)
Make sure your ship commanders all all good or better( try to get ones that are 60+ Naval rating). Make sure your ships
crews are trained to 55 or better in both day and night experience.

I agree mostly with rangerJoe, I go with small SCTFS, mostly so I have more of them. Sometimes I use large Naval Bombardment
TFs, again, no real problems.

A collision every not and them will happen, but it should stay rare.

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/3/2021 11:20:45 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I run size 25 ACTFs all the time with no problems. Make sure your TF commander has a good Naval Rating( plus air rating)
Make sure your ship commanders all all good or better( try to get ones that are 60+ Naval rating). Make sure your ships
crews are trained to 55 or better in both day and night experience.

I agree mostly with rangerJoe, I go with small SCTFS, mostly so I have more of them. Sometimes I use large Naval Bombardment
TFs, again, no real problems.

A collision every now and them will happen, but it should stay rare.

For Bombardments, just the turn of the invasion, I would use a large TF. Otherwise, many small TFs can end up doing more to reduce supplies and increase the suppression and fatigue. Try to keep the same types together for rearming and speed purposes. Include DMS but even so, keep farther away to avoid minefields.

For invasions, the larger the better so the enemy does not get as many shots at your invasion TFs.

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/4/2021 12:45:07 AM

ny59giants

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SC TF is 12 ships and need to keep the CL & CAs together without having CL/CA mixed with BB/BCs. In surface combat the BB may just sit there and watch the CL/CA fight with enemy TF. I like 8 DDs, but 6 is minimal if you are looking for major surface action.

CV TF is 15 ships as any more means the extra ships do not add in their AA. I like 2 CV and a CVL with 8 DDs and then up to 4 CL/CA/BB. I might go up to 4 CV & 2 CVL for either side if I have had few losses to date before forming another TF.

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/4/2021 1:09:08 AM

Nomad

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A Task Force with more than 15 ships suffers diminishing returns in effectiveness defending against air attack and fighting in surface battles. Straight from section 6.2 of the manual.
It is not that the extra ships do not add their AA, but the AA is not as effective.

< Message edited by Nomad -- 8/4/2021 1:11:51 AM >

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/4/2021 1:14:24 AM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

A Task Force with more than 15 ships suffers diminishing returns in effectiveness defending against air attack and fighting in surface battles. Straight from section 6.2 of the manual.
It is not that the extra ships do not add their AA, but the AA is not as effective.

Those shells just can't reach that far . . .

Or as someone used to say, "I feel for you but you are too far away."

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/4/2021 2:54:20 AM

jdsrae

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Depends a bit on what the enemy does.
If the enemy runs 25 ship surface combat task forces, be prepared for the first 8-12 ship friendly task force that meets it to come off second best.

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/4/2021 3:24:57 AM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

Depends a bit on what the enemy does.
If the enemy runs 25 ship surface combat task forces, be prepared for the first 8-12 ship friendly task force that meets it to come off second best.

That is why there are some TFs with only 2 to 4 DDs in it with Aggression set to low, so they go in first and launch their torpedoes then remember a date that they have with a pretty nurse. Then the CLs, then the CAs/CLs, and finally the BBs. But a lot of that 25 ship task force may not fire much, especially if there is reduced visibility.

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 11/14/2021 3:28:10 AM >

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/4/2021 4:08:31 AM

Ian R

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Has anyone else ever taken some notes about ammunition expenditure in surface actions by turret facing?

I'm not saying that this is mathematically provable, but if you have a choice between two CA as to which goes in an SCTF, and which goes with the carriers - one with 3x3 8", and the other with 4x2 - put the one with two triple turrets forward in the SCTF.

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/4/2021 4:17:53 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Has anyone else ever taken some notes about ammunition expenditure in surface actions by turret facing?

I'm not saying that this is mathematically provable, but if you have a choice between two CA as to which goes in an SCTF, and which goes with the carriers - one with 3x3 8", and the other with 4x2 - put the one with two triple turrets forward in the SCTF.

Haven't taken notes, but I remember being surprised several times that most of my ships expended nearly all their rear turret ammo and none or very little of the fore turret ammo. That may have been during bombardments, but I still don't see why any bombardment would only use primarily the rear turrets. With the old CLs that have single guns along the side that cannot bear to the other side of the ship, it is common for one side not to fire at all.
I suspect each round there is a die roll for which facing is applicable and every once in a while it is predominantly fore or aft rather than broadsides.

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/4/2021 10:51:26 AM

Ian R

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My not very comprehensive survey suggested it was more often the bow turrets that fired in a surface action. The "T" crossing advantage may effect that.

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/4/2021 12:08:46 PM

Trugrit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Lots of ship collisions. Any advantages? What seems to be the optimal task force size without negatives? More specifically air combat and surface/bombardment task forces...

It is an interesting topic to think about but there are just too many variables involved
to make a flat out statement one way or the other.

But�..It is interesting to ask what does the game think?

The game has an automatic ship selection option for all the task force types.
I would say that all veteran players players don�t ever use it.

There is a computer algorithm that runs the automatic ship selection. We don�t know what it is.
Seems to be a separate algorithm for each task force type which makes sense.

It does give some clues into what the game designers thought was important in ship selection.
Typically around 14 ships are selected but not always.

As an example open the Downfall scenario in Head to Head play. Go to the Allies order phase
and form up a cargo task force at Pearl Harbor with automatic ship selection turned on.

The game will assemble a 50 ship cargo task force.
That is based on something. It is not random.

For cargo task forces speed seems to be the dominant factor. The game will pick cargo ships
That have close to the same speed or better except for the escorts.
That is not necessarily true for the other task force types.

Why don�t you do a systematic study of automatic ship selection and tell us what the game is thinking?

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/4/2021 1:08:29 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

...There is a computer algorithm that runs the automatic ship selection. We don�t know what it is.
Seems to be a separate algorithm for each task force type which makes sense.

It does give some clues into what the game designers thought was important in ship selection.
Typically around 14 ships are selected but not always...

Trugrit,

Look for guidance from pages 57-60 of the Editor Manual for combatant task forces. "Normal" size is the usual "default", within which the "Opt" number is the likely outcome.

Merchantmen task forces are constructed more along the "needs" criterion.

Alfred

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/4/2021 3:03:17 PM

HansBolter

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TF size depends on purpose and especially Crew Experience.

For the late war effort, I like to form what I refer to as Sup Divs (Supply Divisions) that consist of 40 Liberty Ships and 8 escorts.

In my current game, in my zeal to get these babies operational, I let my Liberty ships accumulate until I could form a 40 ship division as soon as possible. This happened in late 42. By the time the TF made it to the Pearl area from the WC I noticed several heavily damaged ships that had to peel off to Pearl for repairs.

It then occurred to me to take a look at the crew experience. The Liberty ships enter play with crew experience in the 15-19 range for both Day and Night. I realized quickly that these boys needed some seasoning before being placed in 40 ship TFs.

They are now plying back and forth between the WC and Pearl in TFs no greater than 15 ships until they gain sufficient experience to be able to handle their ships in larger TFs.

Train them right and they can handle themselves in large TFs without mishap.

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/4/2021 3:15:07 PM

Cavalry Corp

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In my recent game in April 42 I had a two DD allied TF collide with each other - no combat . Both ships out for ages.

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/4/2021 3:17:23 PM

Trugrit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

...There is a computer algorithm that runs the automatic ship selection. We don�t know what it is.
Seems to be a separate algorithm for each task force type which makes sense.

It does give some clues into what the game designers thought was important in ship selection.
Typically around 14 ships are selected but not always...

Trugrit,

Look for guidance from pages 57-60 of the Editor Manual for combatant task forces. "Normal" size is the usual "default", within which the "Opt" number is the likely outcome.

Merchantmen task forces are constructed more along the "needs" criterion.

Alfred

Thanks Alfred.

I�ve never taken a close look at the AI scripts and I don�t use the automatic ship selection.

But...I always thought there was more variation in the selection than the chart shows.

So, I went into the Marianas scenario and formed up a bombardment TF using automatic selection.

I get 16 ships on first try which fits the max:

2 BB
4 CA
2 CL
6 DD
2 DE

Second try I get

2 BB
6 CA
8 DD

I learn something every day.

Thanks again

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/5/2021 5:14:58 PM

Lokasenna

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If you're having lots of collisions, check your commanders and their naval skill.

I routinely run 25-ship CV TFs in the late war and can't recall suffering a single collision that meant anything. Same with surface TFs, although I rarely run those larger than 14-16 ships as in larger TFs some ships just don't make it into the engagement.

Cargo/Transport TFs? I will absolutely run those up to the 100-ship limit when/where it is safe to do so. Why would I want to add clicks/management to my task load in the game?

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/5/2021 5:40:43 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

If you're having lots of collisions, check your commanders and their naval skill.

I routinely run 25-ship CV TFs in the late war and can't recall suffering a single collision that meant anything. Same with surface TFs, although I rarely run those larger than 14-16 ships as in larger TFs some ships just don't make it into the engagement.

Cargo/Transport TFs? I will absolutely run those up to the 100-ship limit when/where it is safe to do so. Why would I want to add clicks/management to my task load in the game?

I suspect CV TFs have a different probability table for collisions because the TF would have to be more dispersed to allow the CV to maneuver during launch and recovery ops. That is the only rationale I can come up with for the lower rate of collisions in a CV TF. Only time I have seen such collisions is when an enemy SCTF attacks the CVTF and all mayhem ensues!

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/5/2021 7:42:29 PM

Alfred

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Leaders are not a factor in the collision algorithm.

The relevant factors are listed in my 2011 post in this thread.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2992275&mpage=1&key=collision�

Alfred

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/5/2021 11:03:12 PM

RevRick

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In my recent game in April 42 I had a two DD allied TF collide with each other - no combat . Both ships out for ages.

Believe Me! That is a lot better than experiencing that in real life!!

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/6/2021 8:23:12 AM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

Depends a bit on what the enemy does.
If the enemy runs 25 ship surface combat task forces, be prepared for the first 8-12 ship friendly task force that meets it to come off second best.

So there is an advantage then? 25 ship surface combat task force will usually always win against half that?

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/6/2021 8:25:13 AM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Leaders are not a factor in the collision algorithm.

The relevant factors are listed in my 2011 post in this thread.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2992275&mpage=1&key=collision�

Alfred

Thanks Alfred

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/6/2021 12:24:37 PM

Trugrit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

Depends a bit on what the enemy does.
If the enemy runs 25 ship surface combat task forces, be prepared for the first 8-12 ship friendly task force that meets it to come off second best.

So there is an advantage then? 25 ship surface combat task force will usually always win against half that?

No. Bigger is not always better.

You will find that in surface combat many ships in a larger task force will not fire at all
before the task forces break off.

In my humble opinion this game models surface combat better than any game I�ve played.

There are a lot of variables involved in real surface combat.
Surprise, range, speed, weapons, leadership, fow, visibility, crew experience etc.

Task forces stick together and a larger force is harder to maneuver.
Many ships together form what we used to call in the fleet a �target rich� environment.
This has to do with the battle space on the open ocean.

The fact that task forces stick together can mean that if the major ships take critical hits
or significant damage they will withdraw from the battle and the smaller ships will go with them.
In real battle running away is a perfectly accepted tactic.

In any case, a smaller surface task force can often come out better than a large one.
This is modeled very well in the game.

If you search the forum you can find several threads on this.

Here is a good one:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3158617

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/19/2021 5:26:54 PM

Zeckke

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if a smaller Tssurfacecombat encounter a big one you can wait for the worse my humble opinion make big one at least 14 ships

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RE: I see no advantages to having 25 ship taskforces? - 8/21/2021 5:46:26 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zeckke

if a smaller Tssurfacecombat encounter a big one you can wait for the worse my humble opinion make big one at least 14 ships

It depends on the crew experience, leadership of both the individual vessels and the TFs, the aggression levels set, the weather and visibility conditions, among other things.

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