Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: bresh

Well rule is if you use unused movement points to forage, by any corps in the area, you cant siege.
Its an EIA rule, case you wonder, i dont recall witch, but you could try check a online rulebook.
Remember to move corps into City(Siege mode) before you end your move-turn, and before using autoforage/forage the corps.

Regards
Bresh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Neverman:

Did you eat the depot and supply?
Did you press Autoforage?
IF it can autoforage at the end of the land phase then it will UNLESS it is about to be ina a battle???
Let me know...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

I cannot believe you have never seen this before. I have seen it literally hundreds of times. It has always worked this way.

If you don't want to forage using movement points, then make sure you cannot at the time you enter the battle. The corps should use its last movement point to enter the territory in question (although, this is sometimes difficult to accomplish). If you use the auto-forage button OR if you let the system use it for you, then this situation will happen.

The situation is less common for corps that only move 3 spaces than for French corps and cavalry corps. When one enters battle with a 3-movement corps, one has 2 movement left (at most). The forage value of the area being entered would have to be 5 or higher in order for this corps to auto-forage. However, if the corps has 5 movement left, then the area can be as low as a 3 area and still allow auto-foraging.

Marshall, this is one of those bookkeeping issues that really shouldn't exist. But, I understand why it does in the code. However, there may be a simple fix: Create a check box on every corps that says "do not forage this corps this turn". If this were honored by the game, then this problem would evaporate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

The corps should use its last movement point to enter the territory in question (although, this is sometimes difficult to accomplish).

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

The corps should use its last movement point to enter the territory in question (although, this is sometimes difficult to accomplish).

This is just ridiculous, sorry, it just is.

You should only forage IF you either 1) hit the button for that corps or 2) at the end of the phase you can't pay for supply to that corps.

This just needs to be fixed and SOON...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I will look to see is some type of order/checkbox can be applied here since I can see a few possibilities!

1. Some folks may not want this unit to pay for supply (It may be 3 spaces away in winter = 6$).
2. Some folks may want to pay for supply so that it can try an assault!

Both of these should be subject to the player's choice!

quote:

I cannot believe you have never seen this before. I have seen it literally hundreds of times. It has always worked this way.

quote:

Neverman no point using Caps, thats just to annoy people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

I cannot believe you have never seen this before. I have seen it literally hundreds of times. It has always worked this way.

Very true, and after all this time I've gotten used to it and would hardly call it a "crisis" at this point. I agree with Marshall's solution and would prefer having an explicit option to pay for supply or not pay for supply, to prevent cases of auto-foraging restricting seige opportunities. There are still lots of more important issues to resolve.

quote:

Neverman no point using Caps, thats just to annoy people.

bresh, caps or no caps, it doesn't make much difference? I find it amusing that such a highly experienced player discovers something like this auto-foraging feature 20 months after release and then crys foul.

quote:

Why it's a bug:

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Jimmer,

LOL, yes, the statement (on it's own) is a logical fallacy, no doubt, good job you passed PHIL101.

Anyways, does this make sense to anyone? It doesn't make sense to me considering that if you want to forage you have a button to do so, so unless there exists a button to pay supply normally this is a problem that needs to be corrected. Why forage before the movement phase has ended? That's really what gets me.

This can have major game changing impacts. What if I couldn't get all my corps there due to the "must use all movement points".

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
Both of these are already available except for the aforementioned BUG (that's what it is to me).

If they want it to forage then all they have to do is click the "forage button" for that unit (already available). If they want to pay by normal supply.. do nothing!

I don't see the need for order/checkboxes, can someone help me understand this better?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
Why it's a bug:

Corps in range of normal supply should be paid for with normal supply at the end of the land phase unless otherwise stated by the player. The way this game is implemented is that ALL corps WITHIN range of a depot (part of a vaild supply chain) should be paid for with normal supply UNLESS otherwise stated by the player. In my case I didn't state that so it's a BUG!

It's that simple right?

I don't understand the need for another bulky mechanism here, the UI is already bad enough why are you trying to make it worse?

It's just bad practice to add code to fix something that can just as easily be fixed by subtracting code.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
Why it's a bug:

Corps in range of normal supply should be paid for with normal supply at the end of the land phase unless otherwise stated by the player. The way this game is implemented is that ALL corps WITHIN range of a depot (part of a vaild supply chain) should be paid for with normal supply UNLESS otherwise stated by the player. In my case I didn't state that so it's a BUG!

It's that simple right?

I don't understand the need for another bulky mechanism here, the UI is already bad enough why are you trying to make it worse?

It's just bad practice to add code to fix something that can just as easily be fixed by subtracting code.

Wrong. For two major reasons, both dealing with money:

First, this change would cost the average player something like several hundred pounds a game. That's non-trivial.

Second, what is the game supposed to do when you don't have enough money to pay for supply?

Marshall made the right decision initially, but there needs to be a more robust solution. Changing it to your model is unacceptable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
First, why?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
Second, forage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
I guess I'll build a state machine and upload it, may take some time, I have other work to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
First, why?

Because now you are auto-funding corps which previously could have auto-foraged. With no choice available for individual corps, the game has to pick an option.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
Second, forage.

Ummm, that's what you just ruled out as being a choice. This whole thread is a complaint that the computer did exactly this action. You can't have it both ways. Either the game forages or pays for supply. Or, do you really want it to randomly determine which corps get paid for and which forage?

Marshall put in what seemed to have been a good compromise: Auto-forage those that can. Then, pay for corps which can't auto-forage. Finally, forage those for which neither of the above applies (presumably randomly chosen).

Of course, you could always force the user to make a choice for each and every corps on the map. Which is precisely what my solution entails, except it does it en masse, rather than individually.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
I guess I'll build a state machine and upload it, may take some time, I have other work to do.

???

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
Jimmer, but there is a choice for individual corps! Just click the "forage" button!!!

If the player wants to forage that corps that's all he has to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
The problem with Marshall's setup is that there exists a button that does "auto-forage" so if the user wants the corps that can auto-forage to forage all the user has to do is hit this button, so why have this implemented TWICE!!?? This makes NO sense.

There are two buttons:
1. Forage this unit.
2. Auto-Forage all available units.

And a third option:
3. Any units not foraged at the end of the phase should either 1) be paid for with normal supply if available or 2) forage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
From these three already implemented thing it covers all scenarios... all that is left to do is remove the "auto forage all available" auto option.

Your solution is needlessly complex though it does allow for the user to be tremendously stupid.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Each corps should do one of three things:

1. Forage
2. Auto-forage
3. Normal Supply

The solution to each one:

1. Forage - a button exists
2. Auto-Forage - a button exists
3. Normal Supply - happens at the end of the land phase

Now we just need to remove the "auto-forage at the end of the land phase" option and everything is still covered WITHOUT this bug.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
Jimmer, but there is a choice for individual corps! Just click the "forage" button!!!

If the player wants to forage that corps that's all he has to do.

It's too late for that! By your definition of the problem, since you clicked the "end turn" button, it has to make a choice. You no longer have the option of foraging it manually (unless the phase-end code finds something it can't deal with and then stops and asks you a question).

The problem is that YOU did not tell it what to do, so the game has to choose for you. You may not like its choice, but then you should solve it in advance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
The problem with Marshall's setup is that there exists a button that does "auto-forage" so if the user wants the corps that can auto-forage to forage all the user has to do is hit this button, so why have this implemented TWICE!!?? This makes NO sense.

There are two buttons:
1. Forage this unit.
2. Auto-Forage all available units.

And a third option:
3. Any units not foraged at the end of the phase should either 1) be paid for with normal supply if available or 2) forage.

This is incorrect. This may be what you WANT it to do, but it's definitely not what it does, and this is documented in the manual. The actual sequence in #3 is

A) Auto-forage if available
B) Pay for supply if available
C) Forage

Note that your whole argument in this section is fallacious. You are saying (paraphrased) that "there is an auto-forage button, so if the user doesn't use it, then the game shouldn't either". However, there is also a FORAGE button, yet "forage" shows up in your list of steps (3.2, 3.C in mine). All Marshall did was allow all three options to be tried (in a certain order), rather than just two of them.

One could make both 3.A and 3.C not part of the list, but you would be looking at a lot more interaction with the game in that case. I think Marshall made the right choice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
From these three already implemented thing it covers all scenarios... all that is left to do is remove the "auto forage all available" auto option.

Your solution is needlessly complex though it does allow for the user to be tremendously stupid.

I fail to see how it allows the user to be stupid. All it does is allow the user to not have to use up movement points before entering combat. I could see how that would make one lazy, but not stupid. Stupid would be, in the current setup, moving into an area without using up all of the corps movement points.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Each corps should do one of three things:

1. Forage
2. Auto-forage
3. Normal Supply

The solution to each one:

1. Forage - a button exists
2. Auto-Forage - a button exists
3. Normal Supply - happens at the end of the land phase

Now we just need to remove the "auto-forage at the end of the land phase" option and everything is still covered WITHOUT this bug.

See above. What happens when the user does not forage or auto-forage a corps that is out of supply? Marshall's solution answers that question unambiguously. Yours ignores it. A computer does not have that option. It MUST do SOMEthing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
Jimmer, but there is a choice for individual corps! Just click the "forage" button!!!

If the player wants to forage that corps that's all he has to do.

It's too late for that! By your definition of the problem, since you clicked the "end turn" button, it has to make a choice. You no longer have the option of foraging it manually (unless the phase-end code finds something it can't deal with and then stops and asks you a question).

The problem is that YOU did not tell it what to do, so the game has to choose for you. You may not like its choice, but then you should solve it in advance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
The problem with Marshall's setup is that there exists a button that does "auto-forage" so if the user wants the corps that can auto-forage to forage all the user has to do is hit this button, so why have this implemented TWICE!!?? This makes NO sense.

There are two buttons:
1. Forage this unit.
2. Auto-Forage all available units.

And a third option:
3. Any units not foraged at the end of the phase should either 1) be paid for with normal supply if available or 2) forage.

This is incorrect. This may be what you WANT it to do, but it's definitely not what it does, and this is documented in the manual. The actual sequence in #3 is

A) Auto-forage if available
B) Pay for supply if available
C) Forage

Note that your whole argument in this section is fallacious. You are saying (paraphrased) that "there is an auto-forage button, so if the user doesn't use it, then the game shouldn't either". However, there is also a FORAGE button, yet "forage" shows up in your list of steps (3.2, 3.C in mine). All Marshall did was allow all three options to be tried (in a certain order), rather than just two of them.

This is not true actually, this is not what I've said at all. He's allowing the forage option TWICE (once during the land phase and once at the end of it). WHY?? Why Twice?? If the player wanted to auto-forage/forage the unit then he would have hit the button to do just that!!! Why is this so puzzling to you?

One could make both 3.A and 3.C not part of the list, but you would be looking at a lot more interaction with the game in that case. I think Marshall made the right choice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
From these three already implemented thing it covers all scenarios... all that is left to do is remove the "auto forage all available" auto option.

Your solution is needlessly complex though it does allow for the user to be tremendously stupid.

I fail to see how it allows the user to be stupid. All it does is allow the user to not have to use up movement points before entering combat. I could see how that would make one lazy, but not stupid. Stupid would be, in the current setup, moving into an area without using up all of the corps movement points.

Why do we need to assume the user is so stupid that he needs to be allowed to forage TWICE? In case he forgot the first time??

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Each corps should do one of three things:

1. Forage
2. Auto-forage
3. Normal Supply

The solution to each one:

1. Forage - a button exists
2. Auto-Forage - a button exists
3. Normal Supply - happens at the end of the land phase

Now we just need to remove the "auto-forage at the end of the land phase" option and everything is still covered WITHOUT this bug.

See above. What happens when the user does not forage or auto-forage a corps that is out of supply? Marshall's solution answers that question unambiguously. Yours ignores it. A computer does not have that option. It MUST do SOMEthing.