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the * - 10/14/2009 6:29:05 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
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couldn't find the post the question was asked in

my snap reply, was based on what I remembered from the old forum

but then I remembered I had done some testing on that, and it didn't seem to match

one hassle is, if you try it from the Allied side, you may see that the 21st pz has 180 tanks, send out 3 raids to it

first raid looks like it did 20 kills, 2nd raid looks like it did 10 kills, 3rd raid looks like it did 15 kills, and you like, yea baby

but when you get your recon data, you see that the 21st pz, now has 210 tanks

was you recon bad then, and good now, did killing those tanks, cause more tanks to show up ??

(basicly, bad recon)

but

Tank kills, gun kills are odd
and yes, each * looks like it is a kill

but the hassle comes in, when you get the first kill statement, and it may show 3 or 4 *'s and then starts to add to it

soooo

last test I ran, the 21st had 64 tanks

I sent 4 Tiffies and a Mossie after it

first unit, got 7 *'s (numbers look good)
2nd unit got 7 *'s (but first was a 3 * kill) numbers don't match up
3rd unit got 3 *'s (all 3 on the first message)
4th unit got 6 *'s (4 on the first message)
5th unit got 2 *'s (both on the message)

sooooooo

I show 25 *'s, the 21st PZ lost 17 tanks

so, would say, each * that came up as a follow up message was a true kill

would also say, that each message with 2 or more *'s, was a single HARD kill, like the old forum said

if you try and follow the raids like that, you can be close, but it will still be a little off

did that make any sense ????

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RE: the * - 10/14/2009 7:04:27 PM

Golden Bear

Posts: 190
Joined: 3/27/2006
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Yes, it makes sense. I've followed this in detail before and actually got the HG down to like a dozen tanks... then they got some new ones! My conclusion is that each star marks a kill so that if your first kill shows three stars, you just got three tanks, AA or whatever.

Carlos

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

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RE: the * - 10/14/2009 9:20:30 PM

Nicholas Bell

Posts: 549
Joined: 4/10/2006
From: Eagle River, Alaska
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Maybe it is a fog-of-war effect - what the pilots are claiming, vs the reality when you see the actual results. I recall reading that after the Falaise Pocket was cleared out the Allies examined all the wrecked German vehicles. Their conclusion was that the actual numbers of panzers destroyed by rocket firing aircraft was in the realm of a couple of percent, IIRC. Most of the panzers at Mortain were already KO'ed by the US Army. Later in the day the FB's came, rocketed the wrecks, and flew off to claim to having "saved the breakout". This however, does not take into consideration the tactical and morale effects of constant air attacks on the German panzer units which were unable to effectively deploy when constantly being harassed. Nor does it take into account their lack of mobility because of fuel shortages - those tanker trucks blew up a lot easier.

(in reply to Golden Bear)

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RE: the * - 10/15/2009 1:20:38 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline

I never liked those reports

most of it depends on who was making them, and what there intention was

from the reports, most of the AFV had tank rounds in them, but in combat and in advancing, you fire at anything, how many of these tanks were dead, or abandon, and then fired on, when the Ground Intel guys came though, everything left, was a tank kill, the air power did nothing

from the air war on the Russian Front, too many cases of what airpower could do, for it to come out, that airpower couldn't

in the end, a lot times, you have to find out who benefited from the reports

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RE: the * - 10/15/2009 6:01:30 PM

Nicholas Bell

Posts: 549
Joined: 4/10/2006
From: Eagle River, Alaska
Status: offline