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Government mechanic needs some love - 1/3/2013 5:29:52 PM   
jpwrunyan


Posts: 558
Joined: 12/3/2011
From: Uranus
Status: offline 		The more I think about it, the more it bugs me. The current government selection mechanic doesn't feel right.

As many have pointed out, it feels as though there are few repurcussions to changing governments. I am now fully on that bandwagon. Case in point: I was playing a Military Dictatorship with the Wekkarus and getting impatient to meet the 85% victory criteria. So I went from Military Dictatorship to Democracy. My economy score instantly jumps up and I win. That was it. Protests in the street? No. Military leaders rebelling and taking ships with them? No. Colonies breaking away? No. New el Presidente at least? No. Just not really satisifying.

Now I don't exactly want to advocate for arbitrary obnoxious things to happen when you change government types. Colonies breaking away is seriously a pain. I actually homogenize my population either through resettlement or extermination so that it doesn't happen. Also, I just like the "challenge" (read "chore") of getting rid of other races from my empire. BUT non-arbitrary obnoxious things happening when you change governments without taking appropriate measures seems desirable for gameplay. I don't want anything new added, I just want the bad things that happen with Military Dictatorship and Despotism (try changing between those two and you will wish you hadn't) to be applied LOGICALLY to the overpowered "good" governments.

This leads me to my next gripe: the good governments are TOO OVERPOWERED. Seriously, why is Democracy so awesome? No one would ever NOT play Democracy (unless they had an even more OP special government). Oh gee, so I lose a leader every once in a while. I lose leaders with Military Dictatorship via coups just as often it seems. The only reason I don't play Democracy 100% of the time is to be masochist. Remember in Civ 2 when you were a Democracy sometimes the senate would just veto your attempt to go to war and you'd just not be able to do it? That was actually a good thing. I mean why would you be able to go to war with an empire with whom you have good diplomatic relations under a Democracy? Yeah yeah, as a player I want to take that juicy 100% quality planet and add its revenue to my own, but that is why I play a Military Dictatorship, so that I can satiate my greed with impunity. But a Democratic government shouldn't be able to do that. The private sector that benefits from peaceful relations with the target empire would not tolerate it. At the very least, nerf some of the OUTRAGEOUS bonuses the "good" governments get. PLUS TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT RESEARCH? SERIOUSLY?

On the other end of the spectrum is Corporate Nationalism. The government type that has absolutely no redeeming features whatsoever. It doesn't even work as advertised (for those who don't know, read here). Its existence is utterly meaningless. And yet there are times a quick injection of cash directly from the coffers of the private sector WOULD be useful. Alas, Corporate Nationalism can't even do that. Sigh. Playtesting fail? What gives? FIX IT.

I'm going to go play a different game for a while now.

Post #: 1
RE: Government mechanic needs some love - 1/3/2013 5:48:15 PM   
Tyrador


Posts: 170
Joined: 1/29/2012
Status: offline 		Totally agree with you, I would like to see Huge Empire break apart and reduced to the warring with each other states

(in reply to jpwrunyan)
Post #: 2
RE: Government mechanic needs some love - 1/3/2013 6:02:20 PM   
WiZz

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
Status: offline
quote:

As many have pointed out, it feels as though there are few repurcussions to changing governments. I am now fully on that bandwagon. Case in point: I was playing a Military Dictatorship with the Wekkarus and getting impatient to meet the 85% victory criteria. So I went from Military Dictatorship to Democracy. My economy score instantly jumps up and I win. That was it. Protests in the street? No. Military leaders rebelling and taking ships with them? No. Colonies breaking away? No. New el Presidente at least? No. Just not really satisifying.


Strange. I often get rebellions and colonies breaking away while changing governments.

quote:

his leads me to my next gripe: the good governments are TOO OVERPOWERED. Seriously, why is Democracy so awesome? No one would ever NOT play Democracy


As for me, good governments are useless for aggressive, inadequate players (like me ). Clarification: for players, which have wars always.

quote:

On the other end of the spectrum is Corporate Nationalism. The government type that has absolutely no redeeming features whatsoever. It doesn't even work as advertised (for those who don't know, read here). Its existence is utterly meaningless. And yet there are times a quick injection of cash directly from the coffers of the private sector WOULD be useful. Alas, Corporate Nationalism can't even do that. Sigh. Playtesting fail? What gives? FIX IT.


This gov can get you +100k on the beginning of the game from 1 colony. Your post is useless.

(in reply to Tyrador)
Post #: 3
RE: Government mechanic needs some love - 1/4/2013 3:09:19 AM   
Wipqozn


Posts: 10
Joined: 1/1/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

This leads me to my next gripe: the good governments are TOO OVERPOWERED. Seriously, why is Democracy so awesome? No one would ever NOT play Democracy (unless they had an even more OP special government).



I only just recently started playing, and I had the same thoughts about Democracy. It just seems to much better than many of the other options. Since I only just started playing I thought I was just overlooking the importance of something. Glad to see I wasn't just being clueless.

(in reply to jpwrunyan)
Post #: 4
RE: Government mechanic needs some love - 1/4/2013 4:17:41 PM   
Sarissofoi


Posts: 329
Joined: 2/1/2010
Status: offline 		It will be nice if Government systems have some other than stats gameplay bonuses.
Like Feudalism having local vassal ground units or even patrol ships(on private sector upkeep).

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Post #: 5
RE: Government mechanic needs some love - 1/4/2013 4:22:36 PM   
jpwrunyan


Posts: 558
Joined: 12/3/2011
From: Uranus
Status: offline
quote:

This gov can get you +100k on the beginning of the game from 1 colony. Your post is useless.


<Edited to be avoid being trolled>

Your claim is completely unsupported. Myself and many others have actually attempted to use this government to any positive effect. That included Nedrear, who generally exhaustively experiments with game mechanics. It didn't work. This consensus on CN was reached in a previous thread. So if your experience is different, I suggest you elaborate.

Here's the breakdown after 1 year of Human Democracy versus 1 year of Human CN with 1 colony (same game, reloaded):

Start:
25k Gov 59k Private (fun fact: 25 + 59 < 100)

After 1 year of Democracy:
29k Gov 60k Private (89 in total funds)

After 1 year of CN:
(plus bonus! I found Rephidium Ale! That will help the economy! Ah, we'll let it slide, such confidence I have in the awfulness of CN)
23k Gov 62k Private (85 in total funds)

So, after 1 year, I still can't soak more money to the Government through CN that I can through normal taxation using Democracy. Once again, this is at 100% tax rate.

Prove me wrong.

< Message edited by jpwrunyan -- 1/4/2013 6:02:34 PM >

(in reply to WiZz)
Post #: 6
RE: Government mechanic needs some love - 1/4/2013 4:37:05 PM   
jpwrunyan


Posts: 558
Joined: 12/3/2011
From: Uranus
Status: offline
quote:


ORIGINAL: WiZz
Strange. I often get rebellions and colonies breaking away while changing governments.


I do with negative governments, like Despotism or Military Dictatorship. Switching between "good" governments, or from a "bad" government to a "good" government has no repurcussions whatsoever. You already established that you don't play the OP good governments, so mystery solved.

There are also civil war and fleet defection events which are unrelated to changing your government. Those appear to happen if you play a passive race and go out conquering the galaxy with an evil reputation. I say appear because I don't know what exactly causes it. Beware not to be confused.

(in reply to WiZz)
Post #: 7
RE: Government mechanic needs some love - 1/4/2013 4:47:11 PM   
jpwrunyan


Posts: 558
Joined: 12/3/2011
From: Uranus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wipqozn
I only just recently started playing, and I had the same thoughts about Democracy. It just seems to much better than many of the other options. Since I only just started playing I thought I was just overlooking the importance of something. Glad to see I wasn't just being clueless.


Democracy has worse war weariness and slower troop recruitment. However, this is offset by increased approval. I have been in a state of perpetual war as a Democracy and not really suffered for it. Also, you have plenty of time to raise an army before beginning a campaign in earnest, so slower troop recruitment has rarely been an issue for me. Again, the happiness of your colonies (I believe this is documented, but feel free to double check) affects the speed at which troops are recruited. I believe one game I switched to Monarchy just to hurry my troops, but I don't know if it actually helped because I didn't do a side-by-side comparison by reloading.

Don't forget that +25% research makes EVERYTHING better. You get better medical components, better holographic entertainment, and better troops. Technology can mitigate any inherent negative. That's why I loved Democracy.

<edit> It also has increased maintenance costs... again offest by increased colony revenue (and technology).

< Message edited by jpwrunyan -- 1/4/2013 4:48:19 PM >

(in reply to Wipqozn)
Post #: 8
RE: Government mechanic needs some love - 1/5/2013 9:33:22 PM   
WiZz

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan
Prove me wrong.


Normal taxation?
I have a thought, that you can't understand a purpose of this gov. Can you set 100% tax on Democracy or etc? No. But at CN you can. Now think, where and when you can use this?
I usually use them, when I need a quick cashflow for "blitzkrieg" on multiple enemies.
Idea of using CN as regular gov is unwise, honestly. With 100% taxation, this idea becomes blunt.



< Message edited by WiZz -- 1/5/2013 9:34:02 PM >

(in reply to jpwrunyan)
Post #: 9
RE: Government mechanic needs some love - 1/6/2013 5:47:40 AM   
feelotraveller


Posts: 1040
Joined: 9/12/2011
Status: offline 		While not disagreeing with the title of the thread I think that much of the 'rant' is overstated.

Whenever I change government I lose population, sometimes more and sometimes less but usually enough to be significant, at least in the short term.

Democracy is a good early form of government (if you are not warmongering) but later on it is not so clear.  It is +10% colony income but +20% maintenance costs.  For a later game it means you can support signficantly less ships/bases.  In this regard Republic is superior.  (Actually the best bit of Democracy is the growth rate increase...)  Corporate Nationalism can be useful for getting a flyer, if used correctly.  And Technocracy is clearly much better if you are going for a research heavy strategy.  Neither of the latter two are strictly 'good' governments.  And if you are warmongering then many of the other forms of government come into their own with increased troop production and lower maintenance costs.

Really if I'm playing to win I will be in one of the hidden forms of government; now we are talking overpowered. 

(in reply to WiZz)
Post #: 10
RE: Government mechanic needs some love - 1/7/2013 9:53:49 AM   
Sarissofoi


Posts: 329
Joined: 2/1/2010
Status: offline 		BTW Guys(I wasn't here for long time)
Is this possible to modify governments stats?
So some of us can fix this by messing with files?

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Post #: 11
RE: Government mechanic needs some love - 1/7/2013 11:21:16 AM   
w1p

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 11/23/2011
Status: offline 		Wizz: CN can get you 100k from start of the game with 1 colony
jpwrunyan: (insert factual evidence that it cant) prove me wrong
Wizz: doesn't

....

I agree with everything jpwrunyan has said.

Feelo: Republic is classed as a good government, same as democracy. Technocracy is a neutral one i think? (unsure on this!)





< Message edited by w1p -- 1/7/2013 11:24:58 AM >

(in reply to Sarissofoi)
Post #: 12
RE: Government mechanic needs some love - 1/7/2013 1:27:40 PM   
WiZz

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
Status: offline 		Had begun a new game just for you

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/255/20130105230407.jpg/

< Message edited by WiZz -- 1/7/2013 1:28:56 PM >

(in reply to w1p)
Post #: 13
RE: Government mechanic needs some love - 1/7/2013 2:08:27 PM   
feelotraveller


Posts: 1040
Joined: 9/12/2011
Status: offline 		Yep, Republic is classed as a good government no disagreement there.  ('Latter two' = CN & Technocracy)  My point was that later game Republic is often better than Democracy.  And yes Technocracy is neutral (though leaning towards good) which is why I said 'not strictly good governments',

Deeper point is about playstyle.  I'm certainly not saying Democracy is a bad government choice.  If warmongering is the aim Democracy sucks.

Part of the original post reads "No one would ever NOT play Democracy".  Well that is clearly wrong.

Short story: there are real choices between governments, no way is Democracy always the best.

p.s.  One bit of love governments could be given is have event types annexed to them like races currently do. 

(in reply to WiZz)
Post #: 14
RE: Government mechanic needs some love - 1/16/2013 6:55:38 PM   
harshmyth

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 1/8/2013
Status: offline 		I'm not on that band wagon. When I changed govt in a game, colony's got angry, I did so again and they rebelled. Do you know why? I'm just speculating but I I believe that some races prefer certain governments. Perhaps the majority race of your empire preferred democracy? Democracy Does have economic and other social differences. I'm thinking that these differences were enough to tip victory in your favor and you won. So good job, you made a decisive victory with out even realizing it. I'm just speculating from my own experiences though.


btw I prefer republics and monarchy's. I sometimes start as corporate nepotism for the cash boost when I play on harsh settings and have only played as Humans. I just love humans however they seem initially weak but that's okay.

< Message edited by Shuttle Door Gunner -- 1/16/2013 7:04:11 PM >

(in reply to jpwrunyan)
Post #: 15
RE: Government mechanic needs some love - 1/16/2013 7:17:18 PM   
harshmyth

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 1/8/2013
Status: offline 		Whoa, I agree yea very unsupported statements in the lead post. Corporate nepotism isn't broken, I use it for its exact purpose. Try playing the game on harsh settings then you will see the difference. On harsh you go broke almost immediately as humans just after building 5 explorers and some mining stations. And this is on auto settings. But with corporate nepotism I gets a large initial boost to my economy but have to switch to a new govt by my 3rd planet or my economy will collapses. It's happens so real and fast it aint even funny. I actually have to time the gov't change just right to avoid going into a economic depression. I'm pretty sure its your game settings that or nonobservance that have lead you to the conclusions that corporate nepotism in particular and revolutions in general are broken. I just have not seen that to be the case. If you try playing on harsher settings where every bit of income means something then you will see some differences.

< Message edited by Shuttle Door Gunner -- 1/18/2013 1:58:52 AM >

(in reply to jpwrunyan)
Post #: 16
RE: Government mechanic needs some love - 1/17/2013 8:34:30 AM   
Gareth_Bryne


Posts: 232
Joined: 5/16/2010
Status: offline 		It might do to copy MOO2 and start with three basic levels of government that can be improved by research. Also, it seems to me that with the SPOILER supergovernment and techs you should not get them right off the bat through discovery, but also recieve an opportunity to research them.

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"Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts," - Londo Mollari

(in reply to harshmyth)
Post #: 17
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