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Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:14:46 PM

Erik Rutins

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Either later today or tomorrow, depending on internal testing:

- Capped maximum corruption at a colony to 75%
- increased costs for advanced component tech - most advanced tech is roughly twice the cost of starting tech
- fixed additional crashes and freezes encountered by some
- fixed bug that sometimes occurred in retrofitting (was not completing)
- fixed bug where ships sometimes could not be destroyed
- fixed resupply ships not mining fuel
- fixed bug where crash research would sometimes not produce a breakthrough

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

Post #: 1

RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:18:16 PM

Fishman

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75% is still ridiculously high. People complained when LEIM's corruption was always 50% everywhere, but hrmph. We'll see. Also, why is even the capital corrupt? It has a zero distance from itself, obviously. Or does the distance-from-capital thing work in reverse, sort of like in real life, where you don't find all that much corruption in Nowhere, Alaska, but DC is obviously a festering hellhole of corruption, scum, and villainy?

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 2

RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:22:04 PM

Bartje

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Awesome! Thanks guys!

I like that comparison Fishman

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:23:03 PM

Erik Rutins

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Distance is only one part of the formula for corruption. Corruption should probably be renamed as "inefficiency" or something like that. The homeworld is highly developed with billions of people and therefore will have some local inefficiency right off the bat. Empire level inefficiency will rise as the number of total systems and population increases. Distance inefficiency is just based on distance from the homeworld and this is only one small part of overall corruption.

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Post #: 4

RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:24:56 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman
Or does the distance-from-capital thing work in reverse, sort of like in real life, where you don't find all that much corruption in Nowhere, Alaska, but DC is obviously a festering hellhole of corruption, scum, and villainy?

Actually, it does in the sense that small border planets will not have the population to generate much local inefficiency and the distance factor acts as a modifier to that. So if you don't have much local inefficiency to begin with, the distance is not much of an issue. A large developed planet with billions of inhabitants that's also far from the capitol will however have inefficiency and this will be magnified to a degree by the distance.

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Post #: 5

RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:27:37 PM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

75% is still ridiculously high. People complained when LEIM's corruption was always 50% everywhere, but hrmph. We'll see. Also, why is even the capital corrupt? It has a zero distance from itself, obviously. Or does the distance-from-capital thing work in reverse, sort of like in real life, where you don't find all that much corruption in Nowhere, Alaska, but DC is obviously a festering hellhole of corruption, scum, and villainy?

They stated that the final version of 1.05 will have a corruption slider. It just will not be available in the beta.

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Post #: 6

RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:30:42 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
- increased costs for advanced component tech - most advanced tech is roughly twice the cost of starting tech

By the way, this was originally JScott's idea. So thanks to him as we decided this was a great suggestion.

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Post #: 7

RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:32:05 PM

Fishman

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I'm not sure how the "inefficiency" mechanic makes that much sense, really. And why does the private sector get afflicted by it as well, anyway? Isn't the entire point of having a private sector that it improves efficiency by breaking everything down into small, individual "every man for himself" actors? What would make more sense, rather than creating a global punishment factor, is to do what GalCiv did: Make it so that the revenue of a planet does not simply scale linearly with the development and population of the planet, but rather, to some lesser exponent, to reflect the fact that if you have a large population consuming the same resource pool, you're not actually going to get much more money out of them because you'll have a lot of poor people who don't have much to give, and more rich people, who are better at avoiding taxes.

"Distance" based inefficiency is just silly, on the other hand: It has no real-world counterpart, as in the real world, distance-based inefficiency is created by distance from where something is produced, vs. where it is consumed, this difference being lost in transport costs and delay: Something produced and consumed locally suffers no extra efficiency penalties no matter how big your country is. Since on an empire level, most consumption is going to be occurring at your frontiers, where you are building defenses and whatnot, as opposed to the core, where you are too far away to do anything useful, you'd think the smaller colonies would be more efficient than the bigger ones, which ties into the above, as opposed to everything being 75% corrupt.

Something that is pretty much never implemented in games, for no particularly clear reason: inefficiency due to distance-based response delays should be cut down as the world becomes "smaller" due to the ability of things to go faster! In the old days, when a message from the capital had to be delivered by Pony Express and ship and could take weeks or even months, clearly there was a large execution delay in orders, but when things can be phoned in as if they were in the next room, distance clearly has become somewhat of a nonfactor.

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:32:58 PM

Fishman

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I thought point 1 was the only really substantive factor: Everything else is already in the game. Derelicts don't have builders, anyway.

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:37:47 PM

Bartje

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The Private sector is still affected by the government inneficiency. Perhaps think of it that way. (waiting for approval etc..)

I completely agree that "corruption" should become inefficiency.

Distance inefficiency is not silly in my opinion it has a very good real word counterpart. (concerning government that is)

Especially so in DW where travels between planets can take weeks or months.

In essence efficiency / corruption is the measure of administrative efficiency a government has.

This is innately different in each government and culture.

One thing that is true however is that territories that far�flung�generally have less competent government.

What is also true is that as an imperium expands; its governing bureacracy gets a tougher job keeping track of all the reports and things happening in all the provinces / planets.

Its the pain of having central authority really.

In�Galciv this was really nicely moddeled in the way governments gave bonusses.

I think governments such as a federation should therefore inherently also give a boost to administrative efficiency.

< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/11/2010 1:38:26 PM >

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Post #: 10

RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:39:37 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman
I'm not sure how the "inefficiency" mechanic makes that much sense, really. And why does the private sector get afflicted by it as well, anyway? Isn't the entire point of having a private sector that it improves efficiency by breaking everything down into small, individual "every man for himself" actors?

Inefficiency only affects the planets themselves.

quote:

What would make more sense, rather than creating a global punishment factor, is to do what GalCiv did: Make it so that the revenue of a planet does not simply scale linearly with the development and population of the planet, but rather, to some lesser exponent, to reflect the fact that if you have a large population consuming the same resource pool, you're not actually going to get much more money out of them because you'll have a lot of poor people who don't have much to give, and more rich people, who are better at avoiding taxes.

That's exactly the effect that you end up with as a result of corruption/inefficiency. This is a matter of semantics or how well things are hidden in the game design I guess.

quote:

"Distance" based inefficiency is just silly, on the other hand: It has no real-world counterpart, as in the real world, distance-based inefficiency is created by distance from where something is produced, vs. where it is consumed, this difference being lost in transport costs and delay: Something produced and consumed locally suffers no extra efficiency penalties no matter how big your country is. Since on an empire level, most consumption is going to be occurring at your frontiers, where you are building defenses and whatnot, as opposed to the core, where you are too far away to do anything useful, you'd think the smaller colonies would be more efficient than the bigger ones, which ties into the above, as opposed to everything being 75% corrupt.

The point is that in DW, there is no instantaneous travel. It actually takes time to get to the other side of the galaxy. The distance-based inefficiency reflects actual corruption or inefficiency in the sense of the distant planets not using their money and resources on the same priorities the central government might choose. Given that it actually can take weeks to cross the galaxy in DW, there is room for the kind of inefficiency or corruption that existed in older times, like the Roman Empire or the Chinese Empire.

I think you're assuming that because DW is in a future sci-fi setting, that travel and communication times are instantaneous, whereas that's not actually true.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:40:30 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bartje
In�Galciv this was really nicely moddeled in the way governments gave bonusses.
I think governments such as a federation should therefore inherently also give a boost to administrative efficiency.

Some government types do reduce corruption, which is where this comes into effect.

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Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

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Post #: 12

RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:45:48 PM

Bartje

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Noted; I spoke before checking

I find myself thinking occasionally that things are near instantanious too; untill I look at the game time.

Erik I've got a question for you:

How do you view DW's space combat?

Is it a strategical simulation of combat over vast distances that takes days or even months to resolve itself??

Or is this the result of how quickly time passes?

It's an interesting perspective; most sci-fi generally assumes, perhaps for the viewers sake, that battles are adrenaline rushes that take place in days not in weeks or months.

Though it does make sense I suppose, if you see it as a military engagement / operation instead of a classical "battle"... even though it is a battle.

I suppose it's something of a paradigm shift.

Is this in the Galactopedia? It would be a good concept to teach since it's sort of a novel approach.

It would also add alot to immersion if this is made clear to the player quickly.

Perhaps a short story could be included in the galactopedia describing a space battle happening.

We could have a contest! Who writes the best short story!

The winner gets a tech named after him / her!!

Thanks for all the feedback!

< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/11/2010 1:55:04 PM >

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:51:46 PM

Kruos

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Thanks Erik for the feedback.

Could you share with us what are your plan/focus concerning the next patch : weapon balance improvments, IAs improvments, eco improvments, research improvments, etc..?

Keep up the good work! :)

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:55:49 PM

Bartje

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Are there any..... surprises ???

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:58:57 PM

lostsm

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still nothing for more modding? :(

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 1:59:00 PM

jscott991

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Either later today or tomorrow, depending on internal testing:

- Capped maximum corruption at a colony to 75%
- increased costs for advanced component tech - most advanced tech is roughly twice the cost of starting tech
- fixed additional crashes and freezes encountered by some
- fixed bug that sometimes occurred in retrofitting (was not completing)
- fixed bug where ships sometimes could not be destroyed
- fixed resupply ships not mining fuel
- fixed bug where crash research would sometimes not produce a breakthrough

Great news.

The only thing better would be getting a mass load troops command.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 2:02:11 PM

jscott991

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I think you're assuming that because DW is in a future sci-fi setting, that travel and communication times are instantaneous, whereas that's not actually true.

Regards,

- Erik

This is incorrect.

Travel might not be instant in DW, but communication certainly is.

There is no lag when issuing orders to a ship (or at least, no meaningful lag) or giving production orders to a colony.

This is evidence that, like in Star Trek, instantaneous communication is the norm in DW.

We could debate corruption more and more. The real argument against a corruption statistic is that it removes too much of the economic picture from the player's control. A variable that important should be able to be influenced by gameplay (and I'm not just talking about government choice). I won't use stronger language here. My thoughts on this are well known.

But to say corruption is needed because there isn't instant communication is inaccurate because DW does assume that exists.

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 2:03:27 PM

hEad

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Actually, I think instead of it being corruption or inefficiency it should be termed bureaucracy - Corruption seems so civII. Indeed these penalties should be a factor based on a planets population rather than a flat penalty across ones empire. Considering that to manage a large populus requires more resources, the growth penalty should not be associated with the number of planets in ones empire, it should reflect the growing costs of a large population and therefore the calculation should be based on numbers of citizens rather than number of planets... my 2.34c

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 2:03:39 PM

jscott991

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
- increased costs for advanced component tech - most advanced tech is roughly twice the cost of starting tech

By the way, this was originally JScott's idea. So thanks to him as we decided this was a great suggestion.

I'm glad this caught on.

But you shouldn't use both this and corruption. That's double simulating the same thing.

< Message edited by jscott991 -- 5/11/2010 3:27:46 PM >

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 2:11:10 PM

Mifune

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For a few reasons I have decided on my purchase DW. Mostly after seeing some of the WitP crowd in here and reviewing their posts (however cantanerous we may be we do stick it out and hang together). Also seeing potentialities of expansion/modding and of course having Erik and Elliotg providing us so much feedback that many seem to underappreciate. I will let you know more once I get a few hours under my belt.

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 3:20:46 PM

AMF

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Either later today or tomorrow, depending on internal testing:

- Capped maximum corruption at a colony to 75%
- increased costs for advanced component tech - most advanced tech is roughly twice the cost of starting tech
- fixed additional crashes and freezes encountered by some
- fixed bug that sometimes occurred in retrofitting (was not completing)
- fixed bug where ships sometimes could not be destroyed
- fixed resupply ships not mining fuel
- fixed bug where crash research would sometimes not produce a breakthrough

First, let me say these look like great changes.

Now, let me get back on my soapbox and state my belief that these are bandaid fixes that by their simple existence prove the usefulness of modding.

If all the variables in the game were opened up to modders, then rather than go back and forth with arbitrary and untested hard limits (why a 75% cap on corruption? Why not a 50% or 85%? etc...) then the modding community could come up with different mods that fit different players views on what the 'proper' or 'most realistic' or 'coolest' corruption level is.

<end soapbox>

EDIT: oh, I get that a corruption slider is going to be part of the final patch - but I think my point still stands that by opening up the entire set of variables of the game, any and all players could find the mods that they adore...

EDIT 2: and let me also state again that this game is GREAT as it is. I think you guys have done a superb job with it, and all my talk of moddability is really just because I think it has made it 99% of the way and I think increasing the moddability could take it that final 1% to legendary status. And I know you plan on increasing moddability...I'm just a broken record....sorry!

< Message edited by AMF -- 5/11/2010 3:24:07 PM >

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 3:28:48 PM

Gargoil

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I think you're assuming that because DW is in a future sci-fi setting, that travel and communication times are instantaneous, whereas that's not actually true.

Regards,

- Erik

This is incorrect.

Travel might not be instant in DW, but communication certainly is.

There is no lag when issuing orders to a ship (or at least, no meaningful lag) or giving production orders to a colony.

This is evidence that, like in Star Trek, instantaneous communication is the norm in DW.

We could debate corruption more and more. The real argument against a corruption statistic is that it removes too much of the economic picture from the player's control. A variable that important should be able to be influenced by gameplay (and I'm not just talking about government choice). I won't use stronger language here. My thoughts on this are well known.

But to say corruption is needed because there isn't instant communication is inaccurate because DW does assume that exists.

I can present an arguement to your statement that "This is incorrect."

Just because YOU as the player can instantly contact and order any unit in the game does not mean that communications throughout your empire is instant. It means you are omnipresent. You can communicate to any unit anywhere - but THAT could be considered LOCAL communication. This does not mean the message was sent from your capitol to that unit. Communications by the virtual individuals that make up your empire could still be considered to take time (yet still must be faster than light or it would take many, many year to arrive).

< Message edited by Gargoil -- 5/11/2010 3:29:23 PM >

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 3:32:49 PM

Bartje

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Perhaps we could have communication techs to somewhat influence corruption ??

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 4:25:35 PM

Widell

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A proposal: In order to get out of the seemingly eternal loop in the discussion regarding corruption/(in)efficiency, why not make the cap a user setting? That way, we could all choose if we want the cap to be 100%, 0% or something in between? And while we�re at it, let's make the basis for the calculation a user setting as well: Distance, Population, Random or whatever the drivers may be.....

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 4:37:31 PM

RViener

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I look at our present country which with all it's faults is still the best and see the myriad boondoggles both in the government and private sectors and have no problem whatsoever acknowledging that there is waste, fraud and abuse abounding. Just look at the bailouts and Wall Street issues and it is clear to me that Distant Worlds must have some way to represent these issues. As the complexity increases the opportunity for a variety of forms of innefficiency also increases. To absolutely represent this is impossible without creating a separate simulation on the subject. The question is how do you model the result for this game. Is it realistic to assume this is not a factor is wrong. Picking a percentage of GDP is a reasonable starting point adding or subtracting racial personality and form of government, size of population, tech level both plus and minus. It cannot be the same for all. But maybe you need multiple sliders to reflect the variabilities that can be taken at an initial values decided by Elliot and Erik then modified by the player.
Bob Viener

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 4:51:37 PM

Cindar

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I had absolutely no problems with corruption before, even with empires of 400+ colonies you could maintain a substantial defensive force.

I see corruption as representing how unwieldy large empires get, not directly their inefficiency (although that is certainly a part). Consider the United States. Exactly how much can we afford to spend on Military? Its something along the lines of 15% or so. Now, the player in DW is pretty much in charge of nothing but the military. Yes you technically handles colonization as well, but thats a distinctly minor part of its budget. So expecting a major empire to be able to spend 100% of their taxes on their military is ridiculous. If you looked at the U.S., by DW terms it would have 85% 'corruption'. The rest is spent by everything the player isn't doing - social security, education, infrastructure, etc.

It would be interesting if instead of corruption you had a slider that dictated how much of taxes were used on non-military purposes. So if you needed money for military you would increase the percentage you get and decrease the amount spent on other things. This would decrease happiness, of course. The player would have to balance out whether greater protection against outside threats is worth the chance of having to deal with an internal rebellion.

< Message edited by Cindar -- 5/11/2010 4:55:38 PM >

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RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 4:54:23 PM

jscott991

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Widell

A proposal: In order to get out of the seemingly eternal loop in the discussion regarding corruption/(in)efficiency, why not make the cap a user setting? That way, we could all choose if we want the cap to be 100%, 0% or something in between? And while we�re at it, let's make the basis for the calculation a user setting as well: Distance, Population, Random or whatever the drivers may be.....

They are introducing a slider in the full version of 1.05.

The issue, of course, will be if money becomes too plentiful because the game is designed to be played with corruption. In other words, is it a false choice. If the game is unplayable with low levels of corruption because the game design is dependent on it, then having a slider is more gravy than potatoes.

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Post #: 28

RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 4:55:14 PM

Bartje

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How about instead of calling it inneficiency or corruption we'll call it Administrative Efficiency (AE)

I think this name fits the concept pretty well.

I remember that Moo3 had the concept of "Heavy Foot of Government" which is somewhat alike I suppose.

Opinions?

< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/11/2010 6:15:24 PM >

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Post #: 29

RE: Here's what's coming in the next public beta.... - 5/11/2010 5:01:51 PM

RViener

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Good addition Cindar. The key is every society may deal with those issues differently, some with government subsidy others out of the private sector so whether you call it inefficiency, corruption or social expenses,�it is the "overhead" of that society. Just identify what criteria the game should use in coming up with a number to reduce from the "net".
The amount of discretionary spending will be reduced by inefficiency and entitlements no matter whether domestic or military. Isn't that what we're talking about.

< Message edited by RViener -- 5/11/2010 5:07:57 PM >

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Post #: 30