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Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilization games are a joke

 
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Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilization ga... - 4/17/2010 10:52:58 PM   
MajFrankBurns

 

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quote:

Johan [Paradox]: Tactical combat does not work in a strategygame. It makes the strategygame into a joke.



Oh if you need proof it was from the live interview recently here http://www.strategyinformer.com/editorials/7676/hearts-of-iron-3-interview

I just thought of something does that mean X-Com was a joke as well?

< Message edited by MajFrankBurns -- 4/17/2010 10:58:23 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/17/2010 10:55:19 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		well, lets see if he can get his game to work right first, then he can make statements about somebody elses

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/17/2010 10:59:44 PM   
MajFrankBurns

 

Posts: 344
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Status: offline 		He says his game is working right it's the players who don't understand it. Reading that interview I just got madder and madder I swear steam came out my ears.

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/17/2010 11:01:56 PM   
Yogi the Great


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

well, lets see if he can get his game to work right first, then he can make statements about somebody elses


Thats for sure, I purchased Rome Gold - it doesn't work, the support forum (they did not offer actual company support) finally after a few tries just apologized for the bad game and suggested I might want to try to find a copy of the original Rome game as that one should be ok. Oh and I returned it to the store, got a second copy just in case I had a bad disc, same problem. The support forum was full of people who bought the same game and could not get it to work. No refunds, no fixes, just out of luck.

Sorry, I don't like to critcize other companies, but this one was really sad.

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/17/2010 11:10:13 PM   
MajFrankBurns

 

Posts: 344
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Status: offline 		Did you read the part where he states no more patches are planned for HOI III after 1.4? Guess that means all the fans will have to buy Semper-Fi if they want what they think will fix it.  I can only imagine how Vicky 2 is going to come out on initial release. Remember the 1st one?

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/17/2010 11:15:21 PM   
Gil R.


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Status: offline 		I'm in a public place so I can't listen to the interview. Did he really mention WCS?

If so, I think it's nice to be mentioned at StrategyInformer.

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/17/2010 11:43:03 PM   
MajFrankBurns

 

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Status: offline 		No Gil R. he just said what I quoted but basically said your games are a joke because they are strategy games with tactical combat.

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Post #: 7
RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/17/2010 11:49:51 PM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10821
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Status: offline 		Okay, thanks. It's sort of a pity, since I was hoping for a good developer vs. developer feud. WCS hasn't had one since those impudent Frenchmen (umm, "Freedommen"?) dared to produce a game about OUR Civil War, and within a few months of FOF's release. Ahh, the good old days.

< Message edited by Gil R. -- 4/17/2010 11:50:02 PM >

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 12:35:24 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
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From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Gill - I shouldn't worry. He didn't mention you specifically, but I see what the original poster was saying. I don't think your games need to be judged by Paradox...they are far and away a FAR better experience. Relatively bug free (completely bug free if you want to use Paradox as a benchmark) and your games are fun...to play and learn...not a chore!

I had to laugh at this for Semper Fi and the Russian Front...
quote:

Johan [Paradox]: Yeah, its also gotten alot of love. The land AI now knows how to retreat strategically and is better at keeping reserves.

So there are no more patches for HoI3, but Semper Fi will have this? Me thinks this is something that should've been in HoI3, no??

I said on Wargamer and I'll say here - I will not buy another Paradox product out the gate. I'll wait and get it discount and working thanks Johan.

By the way Johan - your interview made me feel dirty! I had to shower!

As for this
quote:

Johan [Paradox]: its in test by the great betas we had on hoi3, who do a splendid job of tracking down problems and suggesting tweaks.
I think I'll pass on Semper Fi if the same betas that were used for HoI3 are being used.

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 12:51:10 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		I hated HoI...realtime at that level is more of a joke than tactical battles if you ask me.

Also I'm not certain as I've only played HoI but aren't all their games the same??? are they bashing an engine to death?? Isn't it a case of lets use the EU engine for a game covering the victorian era....oh and while where at it we can make one that starts just before and ends a little after...we will call it Fields of Glory or something...then we can make HoI4 but lets call it arsenal of democracy...jesus...

I bought Achtung Panzer from them but they don't develop it....shame on Matrix to pass that gem up....I believe Mamba Games is going to release the game on DVD so I shall buy that (the game is worth paying again for on DVD) and I hope the exapnsion Operation Star goes to mamba games as i will buy from them aswell rather than Paradox get some of my money.



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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 12:56:55 AM   
bairdlander2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MajFrankBurns

No Gil R. he just said what I quoted but basically said your games are a joke because they are strategy games with tactical combat.

Im not an HOI3 fan but to be fair here is the quote of what was actually said "[Comment From Sepulch Sepulch : ]
While we are discussing tie in, any plans to ever offer tactical combat like the Total War series does?

Friday April 16, 2010 2:05 Sepulch
2:06 [Comment From Cristi Cristi : ]
How about Hoi3 battles to be with engine from Achtung Panzer: Kharkov ?

Friday April 16, 2010 2:06 Cristi
2:07 Johan [Paradox]: Tactical combat does not work in a strategygame. It makes the strategygame into a joke.

Anyway.. I think hoi3 with all battles played at the level of achtung panzer would probably takes 50-60 years to play through... ".The way I read this someone asked the question of tactical combat being included in a grand strategy game like HOI and Johan answered it would be too time consuming.I dont beleive he was calling Total War series a joke as i know for a fact he owns and plays the series on a regular basis.As I said MajBurns/Killroyishere? I am not a HOI3 fan but perhaps get your facts straight before you post.


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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 1:08:30 AM   
wodin


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From: England
Status: offline 		True but he still said strategy games with tactical combat are a joke...to me that means all games that have it...Johan did not single out any game he covers all of them.

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 1:09:29 AM   
Obsolete


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quote:

Johan [Paradox]: its in test by the great betas we had on hoi3, who do a splendid job of tracking down problems and suggesting tweaks.


So I've learned something again.  I never thought there had been any sort of Beta over at Paradox. 


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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 1:09:53 AM   
bbmike

 

Posts: 286
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Status: offline 		Right, the Civilization series is a joke. 
And Gil R., quit reading these forums and speed up work on Forge of Freedom 2!

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Post #: 14
RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 1:42:23 AM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bbmike

Right, the Civilization series is a joke. 
And Gil R., quit reading these forums and speed up work on Forge of Freedom 2!


There is a need for a follow on to Forge of Freedom?

By the way...
1. Johan said the quote above - "Tactical combat does not work in a strategygame. It makes the strategygame into a joke." - of that there is little dispute.
2. I think WCS have proved him wrong in that regard. Just because he doesn't "get it" or doesn't know how to do it, doesn't make it impossible...WCS have proven otherwise.

HoI3 has made me wake up and smell the coffe with Paradox. The fact that they are dismissing further patches on 1.4 HoI3 seems ridiculous to me. tbh, I have no idea if patch 1.4 fixed everything that was wrong in HoI3....but I seriously doubt it...and to say you're working on a payable expansion whilst in the same interview saying there are no patches for the existing bug ridden game just shows the companys colours.

I've had enough of the company and the game tbh. I tried to stick up for it in the beginning, but in the end it beat me. I doubt I will fire up HoI3 again and, almost paradoxically, will more than likely buy AoD expansion to beef up HoI2 to play that!

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 1:56:04 AM   
06 Maestro


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From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline 		I bet Johan already regrets making that statement. Sometimes, when people are not using a teleprompter, they make a little foot in the mouth move.

I like Paradox games-although HoI3 could have given me more pleasure than it has. EU3 is a very good game which I have been getting into again recently.

As I have spent the majority of my gaming time during the past year with CoG EE (by WC), if I had to choose one company over the other, WC would be my choice-tactical battles and all. WC could speed up its patch process also though.

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Post #: 16
RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 2:10:56 AM   
bbmike

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
There is a need for a follow on to Forge of Freedom?

You know, after playing countless games of FoF and after thinking about your quote above, I think you might be right. I can be happy with FoF for quite some time to come. But I would buy a FoF 2 if there were such a thing!

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Post #: 17
RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 2:12:06 AM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
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From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		Maybe Im reading it wrong,I still think he was responding to the question re the ability to incorporate an "Achtung Panzer" tactical combat system into HOI series.Who cares.

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Post #: 18
RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 3:39:44 AM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
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From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


I bought Achtung Panzer from them but they don't develop it....


Actual reality is Paradox just started publishing and assisting small developers.Paradox up until recently created and developed all their games.Matrix is a publisher they dont actually create any titles,though they do have a staff of artists and programmers to "assist" the developers they publish for.Im not knocking Matrix but the fact is they dont actually develop any titles.They are publishers that assist others in getting games off the ground.I could be wrong though,Im using wikipedia for this information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_Games

< Message edited by bairdlander -- 4/18/2010 3:43:21 AM >

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 4:09:49 AM   
billyjj

 

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quote:



HoI3 has made me wake up and smell the coffe with Paradox. The fact that they are dismissing further patches on 1.4 HoI3 seems ridiculous to me. tbh, I have no idea if patch 1.4 fixed everything that was wrong in HoI3....but I seriously doubt it...and to say you're working on a payable expansion whilst in the same interview saying there are no patches for the existing bug ridden game just shows the companys colours.



It's sad to go to the Paradox forum and see everyone kissing Johan's ass and begging him to fix the game. Toss HOI3 in the garbage and move on.... After HOI3 if i see Paradox is involved I don't even want to look at it, I'm not going to spend a year and a half waiting on this moron to patch his overcomplicated games.

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 4:23:36 AM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
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From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		Panther games IMO beat Matrix and Paradox hands down.

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 4:43:38 AM   
06 Maestro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Panther games IMO beat Matrix and Paradox hands down.


PG is a great company. However, if all companies went to such great lengths to release squared away games; just what would everyone bitch about here? Life would get boring.

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 4:58:52 AM   
ilovestrategy


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Status: offline 		I got kind of tired of the Paradox games. To me they are all the same. 

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 6:45:35 AM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
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Status: offline 		Typical Paradox.

1) Release a horribly bugged game.

2) Put up a patch or two that doesn't fix enough.

3) Re-release the game with a big patch, renamed, and charge full price for it.

It's been done multiple times before, yet some still haven't learned.

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 6:53:55 AM   
Obsolete


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quote:

It's been done multiple times before, yet some still haven't learned.


There is a sucker born every minute.

The last time I mentioned this trend, I got prompty bashed for it by one of those infamouse Fan-Boys.  Some people just want to be taken advantage of I suppose, and even encourage it.  Patriots have never been known for sound decisions though, but often bravery affiliated with foolishness.






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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 7:14:44 AM   
Greybriar


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Status: offline 		I noticed the thread on the Paradox forums that linked to this thread was locked. And not a single fanboy has bothered to post here. That ought to mean something.

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 9:33:04 AM   
Fishman

 

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Status: offline 		He raises a valid point: What he means is that when you implement tactical combat into a grand strategy game, scale completely breaks down. You can see this in games like the Total War series: Vast armies are reduced to mere handfuls of troops, a thousand or so at best, fighting against similarly shrunken units. The game becomes a tactical-scale game overlaid onto a grand strategy map, turning the numbers involved into somewhat comical jokes when compared to the historical values. Clashes of hundreds of thousands become clashes of hundreds.

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 9:55:40 AM   
JudgeDredd


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From: Scotland
Status: offline 		by our close friend Bairdlander no less.

I don't see how he was mis-quoted or the post was misleading as the OP included a link. If he hadn't, I would've possibly agreed it may have been a little misleading.

So - to appease any people thinking wrong doing is going on...

...these two questions were asked...
quote:

While we are discussing tie in, any plans to ever offer tactical combat like the Total War series does?
quote:

How about Hoi3 battles to be with engine from Achtung Panzer: Kharkov ?

and he replied...
quote:

2:07 Johan [Paradox]: Tactical combat does not work in a strategygame. It makes the strategygame into a joke. Anyway.. I think hoi3 with all battles played at the level of achtung panzer would probably takes 50-60 years to play through...


Sure what the OP was saying was taking Johans statement out of context in that he didn't include the drivel before or after...but essentially what he said was tactical combat in a grand strategy game makes a mockery of the strategic element? Wasn't it? I don't really care if he's talking about AP:K or the TW series or WCS - he did say it. He didn't say specifically he was talking about those games - he just said (quoted again)
quote:

Tactical combat does not work in a strategygame. It makes the strategygame into a joke


Now that is a direct quote by him with the two relevant questions beforehand. So there...now everyone can make up their own minds whether he's been misquoted or people are being misled.

And WCS has proven beyond any doubt that he's talking bollocks.

Loved this at Paradox by the way...seems Johan and crew have a nice little Derek Smart system going on
quote:

OrangeYoshi
Link? Quote? Anything?
I'm not surprised though. All misquoting and out of context quotes must be done by off-worlders because proper Paradoxians would never do such a thing to one of our leaders.
Now...if that was a joke it was funneh. But if not, then - well...I despair!

Perhaps I should check with the "Department of Misleading and Out of Context Quotes" before posting this?

And bairdlander - it isn't about them and us. Matrix have released the odd donkey or two before also. I believe Emire in Arms had (has? I haven't visited the forum in some time) some massive thumbs down from the community - but Matrix don't charge for patches.

I do not have a Matrix game that I do not fire up and play every once in a while. I do have HoI3 though. The game was a shambles on release and he's patching and selling you the patch. I hope you eventually get the game you hoped for. I've just given up on HoI3 now.

oh - and someone mentioned the EU series - sure...EUIII is a great game.

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 10:03:36 AM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

He raises a valid point: What he means is that when you implement tactical combat into a grand strategy game, scale completely breaks down. You can see this in games like the Total War series: Vast armies are reduced to mere handfuls of troops, a thousand or so at best, fighting against similarly shrunken units. The game becomes a tactical-scale game overlaid onto a grand strategy map, turning the numbers involved into somewhat comical jokes when compared to the historical values. Clashes of hundreds of thousands become clashes of hundreds.

Well we can disagree. I don't think it's a valid point. I suspect the people who would like a strategy game to go down to the tactical level are not expecting divisions to be mimicked. They are simply looking for a way to "get into" the battle and have some control over it. The numbers on either side can be scaled down from the strategic to the tactical to give some scaled resemblence of what is going on on the strategic map. It just a way of the players getting down and dirty and feeling like they have some control, instead of letting some mathematical voodoo do it's thing behind the scenes.

In fact, going on his track record, I think it was another knife in the back of TW and it's crew. He did it before when he publicly denounced any AI being present in the TW series. Rightly or wrongly, he said that and then proceeded to make one of the single most disastrous releases of any game I can recall being part of.

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RE: Johan of Paradox basically says Western Civilizatio... - 4/18/2010 10:37:11 AM   
MajFrankBurns

 

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quote:

In fact, going on his track record, I think it was another knife in the back of TW and it's crew. He did it before when he publicly denounced any AI being present in the TW series. Rightly or wrongly, he said that and then proceeded to make one of the single most disastrous releases of any game I can recall being part of.


That's what came to my mind also.

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