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Harpoon ANW - User Feedback - 1/1/2011 9:22:46 AM

Bucks

Posts: 679
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

Hi All,

I just wanted to raise a subject that's been brought to my attention. In fact I'm well aware of it and decided the best thing to do is give a "nudge" to the community at large.

There are several people involved in the continued work on both the HUD3 Harpoon ANW database, and scenarios designed using the HUD3. While I'm just an addict of the gaming system, some of the "behind the scenes" and public contributors have either other interests or limited time to devote to their continued contribution to the Harpoon gaming system.

As such, I would like to encourage people to provide feedback to, for example ANW scenario designers. This isn't an exclusive HUD3 related post, it really applies to all content contributors to ANW regardless of the individual database they are using.

The creation of ANW scenarios is a time consuming process. It can literally take days or longer to perfect a scenario to the point where it reaches a level of quality making it ready for public release. With the continuing improvements that ANW is undergoing this time "consumption" is doing nothing but increasing which, in my opinion is actually a good thing. Improvements lead to higher quality material being produced regardless of the time required increasing.

I would like to ask players to provide some feedback when a scenario is released, for the author concerned. Even a few lines thanking the author for their time is a great way to both encourage and motivate people to continue their efforts. When you think about it, the authors/designers are giving up their time to provide players with material that the players themselves benefit from, not the designers. It only takes a few minutes and this isn't something I'm looking for personally. It doesn't have to be a full blown AAR although I'm sure the forum would be happy to read such reports, something along the lines of a "thank you" and a small reflection on the challenges or otherwise a scenario has presented you with is all that I have in mind.

When you think about this, it might take 5 or 10 minutes to send off a few lines while a designer has spent possibly 40 or more hours building and testing his work. I can't force people into participation I can however appeal to your collective "good nature" as a group of people interested in Naval Warfare to contribute in your own way.

Thanks in advance

Darren

_____________________________

*******************************************
Editor HUD-II/HUD3 Harpoon Databases

http://www.taitennek.com/hud3-db/hud3-index.htm

Development Team H3ANW v3.8, v3.9, v3.10 & v3.10.1
*******************************************

Post #: 1

RE: Harpoon ANW - User Feedback - 1/1/2011 7:10:22 PM

TonyE

Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline

Here Here! Same deal for the HC side of the fence.

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Bucks)

Post #: 2

RE: Harpoon ANW - User Feedback - 1/1/2011 10:09:12 PM

Vincenzo_Beretta

Posts: 440
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline

A lot of people actually say "thank-you" and send comments directly to those contributing to the game with their efforts, via PM or e-mail. However, there are already people who publicly comment on scenarios in the forum
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2667140

< Message edited by Vincenzo Beretta -- 1/1/2011 10:10:32 PM >

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(in reply to TonyE)

Post #: 3

RE: Harpoon ANW - User Feedback - 1/2/2011 12:20:52 AM

Bucks

Posts: 679
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

Vince,

If you think a single post is proof that we don't need this you're more out of touch with reality than I could imagine. If nothing else it really proves my point.

One swallow does not make spring, nor does one fine day ~ Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, bk 1, ch. 7 (C. 335 BC)

Cheers

Darren

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(in reply to Vincenzo_Beretta)

Post #: 4

RE: Harpoon ANW - User Feedback - 1/2/2011 4:21:37 AM

Bucks

Posts: 679
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE

Here Here! Same deal for the HC side of the fence.

Tony,

Apologies if I came across as ignoring the HCE guys, you're correct to point out this applies to you as well. I was raising this issue after the person who has provided my efforts with the most support over the last 12 months was honest enough to inform me that, he was seriously reconsidering devoting time to Harpoon ANW since he couldn't be sure if anyone was actually downloading and playing his scenarios. Why devote time to something that possibly no one is actually using?

As I said I'm just an "addict" and probably don't care if people use my work or not. I'm also concerned the Harpoon system seems to attract what I consider to be undue criticism of its progress etc. I've taken some time to go back and look at what seems to be a currently popular Matrix title - "War in the Pacific". I understand it's a US designed game and realise the American forces undertook the majority of fighting in the Pacific. Yet as an Australian, I was surprised at some of the basic historical inaccuracies the game has especially in terms of my own country's forces involved in that theatre of operations. The original (2004) version of that game had RAAF Squadrons flying the Bristol Beaufighter Mk21s during the Battle of the Coral Sea... That aircraft, manufactured here in Australia didn't enter service until May 1944!! Two years after the battle took place... Then we have Aussie surface units fielding the OS2U Kingfisher, when RAN units used the Supermarine Walrus... I never really played much of it after that, it's one of the games we probably all have examples of that just sits on a hard drive and you never go back to.

I'm not saying it's not a good attempt at simulating WW2 Pacific operations on a grand scale, I'm simply using it as an example of the types of mistakes/inaccuracies etc that nearly all games have within them. What really concerns me is the level of "perfection" Harpoon is expected to achieve, when there are many other games with as many if not more issues. Either the community of Harpoon players are extraordinary in their demands placed upon the gaming system, or other games are given a level of grace not afforded to Harpoon? I understand the forum has been subjected to a series of constant reminders about personal beliefs in how it fails, but that's exactly what they were, one person's belief things didn't work the way he wanted it to. I could suggest those criticisms were in some cases "fabricated" to give the appearance that problems existed, where for the average player they simply would not have during normal game play.

A case in point would be the insertion of units directly into a scenario while it was already running. That simply showed the person concerned lacked the requisite knowledge to understand the way the game engine actually tracks units for a scenario, rather than the game suffering from a deficiency. I'll stop at that otherwise we'll only be going over the sordid past, where I really want to be looking to a brighter future.

Cheers

Darren

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(in reply to TonyE)

Post #: 5

RE: Harpoon ANW - User Feedback - 1/2/2011 8:49:33 AM

Vincenzo_Beretta

Posts: 440
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

Vince,

If you think a single post is proof that we don't need this you're more out of touch with reality than I could imagine.

...Which, luckily, is not the case, since there are many other posts like the one I linked. I'm not saying that we don't need it, I'm saying that we already have it - only that a lot of "thank yous" and comments come via either PM or email. If what you mean is that is better if these comments should be public, you could start by asking to those who say "thank you" and comment to you privately to do it on the forum.

< Message edited by Vincenzo Beretta -- 1/2/2011 8:56:55 AM >

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(in reply to Bucks)

Post #: 6

RE: Harpoon ANW - User Feedback - 1/2/2011 10:08:16 AM

Bucks

Posts: 679
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

Vince,

I explicitly stated this isn't about me, I really don't do "PMs" and so far those passing along compliments have done so publicly. I'll go public with the person I was referring to just to make sure he gets the credit he truly deserves. That, and so you understand this isn't about me, you or anyone but the man I am lucky to count amongst my friends.

Ralf Koelbach has done more for the continuation of Harpoon ANW than most people ever will. His involvement stretches back through the mists of Harpoon time. Ralf's concerns were expressed to me personally and I decided to attempt to prompt people who might not usually post comments on the forum to do so. Of course the possibility exists that, people haven't downloaded his scens, Frans' & myself aren't interested in keeping count on downloads, fairly puerile IMHO. I don't do the work I undertake for public acclamation, I do it for the love of the gaming system. Ralf is a very busy man, he has a family, holds a Doctorate in Economics and holds a very responsible position within the German banking system.

As such, I can fully understand he would like to have an indication that his time and effort is not so much appreciated as worthwhile, (somebody uses his work) although appreciation would surely be welcomed. If Ralf had been receiving the PMs and off-forum messages he would not have discussed this matter with me. Although I have never personally met Ralf I consider him my friend and my most valuable asset when it comes down to the work I do with the HUD3. Without Ralf I would have given up a long time ago, he's kept me motivated and involved in ANW, without that support I wouldn't be here and wouldn't be attempting to motivate the community to even simply post a "thank you". I hope you and the rest of the community understand my motivation for starting this thread? Again, I will state I AM NOT seeking this for myself and had hoped not to have to "out" the person who deserves this simply because you wish to make something out of this thread. Unlike some unnamed individuals, most of us are here to contribute and not seek "Harpoon fame" whatever that's worth...

Thanks in Advance

Darren

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(in reply to Vincenzo_Beretta)

Post #: 7

RE: Harpoon ANW - User Feedback - 1/2/2011 2:26:38 PM

JRyan

Posts: 555
Joined: 3/29/2005
Status: offline

I have a suggestion, how about a thread with peoples favorite scenario in a genre. Then maybe a few top 10's, which would then give the newer folks closure exposure to actual scenarios?

I have always enjoyed Ralf's scens. To be honest, I have made a few myself, but was way too embarrassed to post them. Why? The amount of work that goes into designing one is amazing and mine where not that well thought out. My best attempt was the 'Venezuela Surprise' that showcased the capabilities of the DDX, and the GIS Fuction. Anyhow, Dale gave me good feedback, but also was able to show why they have to be thought out beforehand. It is a skill that requires extreme patience. Ralf has that, and so do others. I am so glad his were included in this new release.

One of the things that has always bothered me is that to keep up with the DB's/Scens has always been sort of problematic. This new H3ANW DB/SCEN directory structure makes it a breeze. I have been arguing for years about being able to download scenario packs etc, now it might be time. Then again, maybe it is not that important, but it would be much easier to maintain.

How about this for an idea, how about a thread/file, that is downloadable, with somewhat detailed descriptions of each scenario. This way, when you set down to your computer, before cranking on the sim, you at a glance, decide what your in the mood for. That has always been a tough one for me. I read the intro's, but sometimes that doesn't cut it. The problem with this idea is the spoiler factor. I am not sure how to deal with that one.

Anyhow just some thoughts....

Post #: 8

RE: Harpoon ANW - User Feedback - 1/2/2011 3:16:13 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline

A few less douchey posts and more actual content. Our site was the most successful for years not because of a download counter but because we had new scenarios every week. To make that happen you need to quit alienating people and swing your focus into actually building stuff. If Ralf's the only one left you've got a real problem. Build some bridges. Hopefully others will follow and Harpoon will move forward.

Good Luck

(in reply to JRyan)

Post #: 9

RE: Harpoon ANW - User Feedback - 1/2/2011 6:28:05 PM

JRyan

Posts: 555
Joined: 3/29/2005
Status: offline

I didn't mean a counter per se but a list of user rated scens with descriptions etc. It would be easier to pick them this way IMHO. There are so many to choose from and to be honest, I am playing only my 2nd since getting HUE in H3. The others are HC scens. I am enjoying myself and that is why I picked Harpoon back up.

I am not trying to alienate anyone. As I have stated, I don't think I could build them to the quality that others have.

Post #: 10

RE: Harpoon ANW - User Feedback - 1/4/2011 9:48:32 AM

Vincenzo_Beretta

Posts: 440
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

Vince,

I explicitly stated this isn't about me, I really don't do "PMs" and so far those passing along compliments have done so publicly.

I do both public replies and PMs - to me it's a way to respect the method choosen by the writer. But this isn't about me either: I simply point out how there are a lot of commets, thank-yous and requests coming via PM regarding scenarios - either already published and/or new. As I said, I do respect the will of the writers to express their opinions in private. If you feel the need for these kind of comments to be openly published, you can start by asking those who send private comments to you if it would be good for them to do so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: koelbach

Darren,

thx for your kind words. But you�re exaggerating, old friend.

[snip]

And Vincenzo, it was Freek who posted that scenario AAR - one contributor writing an AAR on another scen designer�s scen.

Well, one plays, the other sings does seem the new fad in the Harpoon community :D

It would be helpful if we had more AARs here in order to see that people are interested. This works for Harpoon Classic - why not for ANW?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

A few less douchey posts and more actual content. Our site was the most successful for years not because of a download counter but because we had new scenarios every week. To make that happen you need to quit alienating people and swing your focus into actually building stuff.

I fully agree about the "douchey posts": I can only speak for the Pdb, but I guess that the number of hits on that thread alone confirms your words. Of course avoid banning the most prolific contributors and openly partying about it (see http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2614828&mpage=6 and onwards) could be a good way to "quit alienating people". But what do I know? ;)

< Message edited by Vincenzo Beretta -- 1/4/2011 10:01:50 AM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Harpoon ANW - User Feedback - 1/4/2011 10:01:49 AM

Vincenzo_Beretta

Posts: 440
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline

Double post

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(in reply to Vincenzo_Beretta)

Post #: 12

RE: Harpoon ANW - User Feedback - 1/4/2011 6:25:15 PM

Vincenzo_Beretta

Posts: 440
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: koelbach
"...the most prolific contributors".

There is only one banned, from all major Harpoon sites = Matrix, HarpGamer and warfaresims (ex-HHQ)

And a contributor who has never resorted to publicly begging for others to try his scenarios, I might add.

Anyway, I respect some other else's idea even if it differs with mine. *ONE* idea. If banning someone who contributes for free with scenarios and other work is fine, good for you. But don't whine about "alienating people", then. It's one of them, not both.

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Post #: 13

RE: Harpoon ANW - User Feedback - 1/4/2011 7:04:00 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline

He's got a point though Ralf. In spite of all the bad stuff Herman does he actually produces content. Beyond you I haven't seen anything tangible from any of these guys beyond some self serving posts which drain the desire out of anybody to help.

Hope you guys really get your stuff together and move forward. You got rid of the "community problems"..fine... now quit talking about it, pick up the slack and get some work done.

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 1/4/2011 10:12:59 PM >

(in reply to Vincenzo_Beretta)

Post #: 14