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How to counter IJ aircraft hordes?

 
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How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/22/2011 5:15:38 PM   
stateless

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 11/3/2004
From: Anchorage, AK
Status: offline 		We’re in Oct 42 in my scenario 2 game as the Allies and when I happened to mouse over the Home Islands last turn what I saw shocked me. Not only could I see his factories, but the sizes were amazing.

A6M2 – 300;
A6M3a – 202;
Oscar IIb – 101;
Tojo IIa – 351;
Tojo IIb – 126.

I didn’t note down the bomber numbers because it was too depressing, and it appears that the Frank is well on its way to being researched. The Americans are producing, what, a 130 fighter aircraft a month?

I’m following all the usual advice, choosing only to fight where I can set up ambushes of superior numbers, range, rest, morale, altitude, etc and I am achieving a 2.5-1 or greater kill ratio against his sweeps. However, after a stunning victory, it takes me weeks to recover while he is back up to normal in two days.

Please tell me that there is a painful tradeoff for Japan to, in a couple of months, quadruple the size of its aircraft manufacturing industry? If so, how do I take advantage of it?

Other than wait, is there anything else I should be doing? I'm starting to get a little discouraged.


Post #: 1
RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/22/2011 5:19:03 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Stateless,

Is your game against a human opponent PBEM or against the AI? Which scenario are you playing? The responses you receive will be dictated by these answers.

_____________________________


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Post #: 2
RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/22/2011 5:20:15 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		The best counter that I can think of would be to concentrate your subs to destroying his "treasure fleets" (those TFs bringing the oil and resources back from the SRA). If he doesn't have the fuel and resources to build those aircraft you won't have to deal with them... Otherwise, I am glad that I am not playing scen 2 as I don't think that I am smart enough to come up with any other counters to this.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to stateless)
Post #: 3
RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/22/2011 5:23:01 PM   
stateless

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 11/3/2004
From: Anchorage, AK
Status: offline 		PBEM. Scenario 2. PDU on.

And I think there lies the problem - PDU on and Scenario 2 gives Japan enough advantages that I guess this is what I should expect.

And this thread isn't a whine - I'm really looking for ideas on how to beat this strategy.





< Message edited by stateless -- 1/22/2011 5:24:23 PM >

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 4
RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/22/2011 5:32:46 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stateless

PBEM. Scenario 2. PDU on.

And I think there lies the problem - PDU on and Scenario 2 gives Japan enough advantages that I guess this is what I should expect.






Yes and no. These production numbers look high in my opinion. Possibly unsustainably so, unless he's done a magnificent job of capturing more HI centers than historical.

The IJ must pay HI for airframe and engine production as well as pilot training (once monthly on the last). The more pilots in training, the steeper HI cost. Overproduction / overexpansion of fighter aircraft is possible in the game, but at a long-term HI cost. He'll be challenged later in the game as his HI reserves dwindle.

There are also ways to expedite research of follow-on fighter types (e.g., shifting research from Tojo IIa to IIb before historical) that are 'borderline' game mechanisms in my mind. This may explain his high level of production of Tojo IIbs at this stage.

If you are getting 2.5:1 kills in a defensive mode against his artificially elevated second generation fighters, you're doing sensationally well. It doesn't matter really how many planes he produces, provided that you continue to down them in huge numbers. When your better fighters come on line in 1943-1944, you should be able to increase this ratio further yet. Until then, keep the faith.

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Post #: 5
RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/22/2011 5:52:58 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		Just keep up fighting. If the size of the factories actually corresponds to airframe consumption on the frontlines, your opponent will destroy himself fairly soon (particularly if you took care to ensure heavy damage to DEI oil production, as any Allied player striving for early superiority should do). Not only he overinvested in early-war planes in the scenario with heavier HI tax, there is no way his pilot training can keep up with losses of this magnitude. Between deteriorating Japanese pilot quality, the reverse process on Allied side, as Allies take down more planes than they lose, and often over their own airfields, and third-generation Allied planes arriving in numbers, soon enough air war should turn horrifically one-sided.

Tactically, you seem to be doing just fine. Remember, though, that overabundance of reserves in the rear areas doesn't matter, if a Japanese airbase is knocked out in a day and units there completely trashed. With their 4Es, Allies can easily launch offensive air operations in late-1942, early-1943, even if their reserves aren't as big.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 6
RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/22/2011 6:05:00 PM   
vonTirpitz


Posts: 511
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Wilmington, NC
Status: offline 		Your opponent may be overproducing a lot of soon to be obsolete airframes that will end up just sitting in the pools (not enough bases and airgroups to make use of them on the front lines).

Additionally, that level of production has cost valuable HI points likely needed in a couple of years (not to mention the million or so supply points used for expansion that could have been sent to other theaters like China). IMHO I think you will reap the benefits of this by 1944. Even if those factories aren't producing at the moment the over expansion costs will hurt the Japanese player in the future.

You may not believe it, but you are likely already seeing some reward now by the "hidden" things that they can not afford to do now (like conquering new areas of the map) due to upcoming shortages of supplies and fuel.

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RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/22/2011 7:14:25 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stateless

We’re in Oct 42 in my scenario 2 game as the Allies and when I happened to mouse over the Home Islands last turn what I saw shocked me. Not only could I see his factories, but the sizes were amazing.

A6M2 – 300;
A6M3a – 202;
Oscar IIb – 101;
Tojo IIa – 351;
Tojo IIb – 126.



Is it possible to produce those models in Oct 1942? Tojo IIb and Oscar IIb are late 1943 models, right? EDIT: mid 1943 models?

As a japanese player, I see no reason to produce 500 Zeros per montht...

< Message edited by Puhis -- 1/22/2011 7:18:12 PM >

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Post #: 8
RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/22/2011 7:30:41 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

quote:

ORIGINAL: stateless

We’re in Oct 42 in my scenario 2 game as the Allies and when I happened to mouse over the Home Islands last turn what I saw shocked me. Not only could I see his factories, but the sizes were amazing.

A6M2 – 300;
A6M3a – 202;
Oscar IIb – 101;
Tojo IIa – 351;
Tojo IIb – 126.



Is it possible to produce those models in Oct 1942? Tojo IIb and Oscar IIb are late 1943 models, right? EDIT: mid 1943 models?

As a japanese player, I see no reason to produce 500 Zeros per montht...


The OP said those figures were obtained via mouseover.

Unless recon flights have been specifically flown over the bases and their DL increased, the mouseover info is extremely inaccurate. (see page 221 of the manual)

Alfred

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 9
RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/22/2011 8:27:33 PM   
PresterJohn001


Posts: 382
Joined: 8/11/2009
Status: offline 		FoW Wins


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Post #: 10
RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/22/2011 11:18:41 PM   
stateless

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 11/3/2004
From: Anchorage, AK
Status: offline 		Thanks for the advice and encouragement; I will keep the faith and my reward shall be in heaven.

I really hoped that FOW was the explantion and others would report similar factory sizes. After checking the industry mouseovers on a bunch of previous turns, I now doubt FOW is the answer. The numbers update sporadically (I'm guessing whenver there is a sigint notice which ups the DL) but the pattern of factory size and repair is perfectly consistent with the huge factories hypothesis with no randomness or shrinking of size estimates.

And I suspect I'm seeing some results already – just got a turn back with 4-1 kill ratio after shooting down 95 zeros over Lunga according to the aircraft losses screen!

My previously reported discouragement is gone.

(in reply to PresterJohn001)
Post #: 11
RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/22/2011 11:33:37 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

quote:

ORIGINAL: stateless

We’re in Oct 42 in my scenario 2 game as the Allies and when I happened to mouse over the Home Islands last turn what I saw shocked me. Not only could I see his factories, but the sizes were amazing.

A6M2 – 300;
A6M3a – 202;
Oscar IIb – 101;
Tojo IIa – 351;
Tojo IIb – 126.



Is it possible to produce those models in Oct 1942? Tojo IIb and Oscar IIb are late 1943 models, right? EDIT: mid 1943 models?

As a japanese player, I see no reason to produce 500 Zeros per montht...

@ Puhis,

I believe that in scenario 2 that the Tojo IIa is available in June or July 1942. It's quite conceivable that, through manipulation of the research approach, that Tojo IIbs could be advanced by several months as well. Don't know when the Oscar IIa comes online in scenario 2, but it's available in scenario 1 in November 1942. Again, with some crafty manipulation of the research mechanism, it's not unreasonable to expect Oscar IIbs in late 1942 in scenario 2.

_____________________________


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Post #: 12
RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/22/2011 11:37:04 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stateless

Thanks for the advice and encouragement; I will keep the faith and my reward shall be in heaven.

I really hoped that FOW was the explantion and others would report similar factory sizes. After checking the industry mouseovers on a bunch of previous turns, I now doubt FOW is the answer. The numbers update sporadically (I'm guessing whenver there is a sigint notice which ups the DL) but the pattern of factory size and repair is perfectly consistent with the huge factories hypothesis with no randomness or shrinking of size estimates.

And I suspect I'm seeing some results already – just got a turn back with 4-1 kill ratio after shooting down 95 zeros over Lunga according to the aircraft losses screen!

My previously reported discouragement is gone.

Wow. His pilot quality must truly suck. The A6M2 or A6M3 series is on par with any USN airframe available at the time, and probably only bested by the rare P38 appearances on the army side. That you can get 4:1 with probably inferior aircraft is either due to unit aggression / positioning / sweep surprise, pilot quality or all of the above.

Whichever the explanation, keep up the good work!


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Post #: 13
RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/23/2011 1:15:50 AM   
stateless

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 11/3/2004
From: Anchorage, AK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: stateless

Thanks for the advice and encouragement; I will keep the faith and my reward shall be in heaven.

I really hoped that FOW was the explantion and others would report similar factory sizes. After checking the industry mouseovers on a bunch of previous turns, I now doubt FOW is the answer. The numbers update sporadically (I'm guessing whenver there is a sigint notice which ups the DL) but the pattern of factory size and repair is perfectly consistent with the huge factories hypothesis with no randomness or shrinking of size estimates.

And I suspect I'm seeing some results already – just got a turn back with 4-1 kill ratio after shooting down 95 zeros over Lunga according to the aircraft losses screen!

My previously reported discouragement is gone.

Wow. His pilot quality must truly suck. The A6M2 or A6M3 series is on par with any USN airframe available at the time, and probably only bested by the rare P38 appearances on the army side. That you can get 4:1 with probably inferior aircraft is either due to unit aggression / positioning / sweep surprise, pilot quality or all of the above.

Whichever the explanation, keep up the good work!



Yes to all of the above. Its hard to tell exactly who shot down what, but screen shot is attached. Some is surely FOW, the ratio is actually closer to 3-1, some of the zeros were escorts, plus its 2 day turns, but I'm excited. I'll be equally discouraged if next turn he's shrugged it off and the sweeps are back as if nothing happened.


[image][/image]






Attachment (1)

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 14
RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/23/2011 1:39:00 AM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		It's early '44 in my CG vs the AI and it appears to me that the AI has pulled all its airpower into SE Asia.  The British are seeing armadas of 30-50 bombers escorted by 200+ Oscars, Tojos and Zeros, while my forces in CentPac are at Guam, Rota and Davao with little opposition.  There are some persistent fighter squadrons in the Marianas but the pilot level must be terrible; my Corsairs and P-47's shoot down a half dozen for the loss of just one or two of my own planes. 

What's weird in SE Asia is I've pushed the Japanese out of Prome and the Andamans, but that's just made things worse.  Those two bases can now be reached by every airbase in the theater, and there's no way on earth I can put enough fighters up to protect them.

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Post #: 15
RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/23/2011 3:02:36 AM   
erstad

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 8/3/2004
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline
quote:

Is it possible to produce those models in Oct 1942? Tojo IIb and Oscar IIb are late 1943 models, right? EDIT: mid 1943 models?


The mouseover shows research factories as well as active factories. Something to keep in mind, even if these specific models are available as described by Chickenboy.



< Message edited by erstad -- 1/23/2011 3:03:17 AM >

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Post #: 16
RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/23/2011 5:11:07 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: erstad

The mouseover shows research factories as well as active factories. Something to keep in mind, even if these specific models are available as described by Chickenboy.



I was wondering if that was the case. Thanks for clarifying.

_____________________________

Pax

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Post #: 17
RE: How to counter IJ aircraft hordes? - 1/23/2011 11:32:38 AM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stateless


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: stateless

Thanks for the advice and encouragement; I will keep the faith and my reward shall be in heaven.

I really hoped that FOW was the explantion and others would report similar factory sizes. After checking the industry mouseovers on a bunch of previous turns, I now doubt FOW is the answer. The numbers update sporadically (I'm guessing whenver there is a sigint notice which ups the DL) but the pattern of factory size and repair is perfectly consistent with the huge factories hypothesis with no randomness or shrinking of size estimates.

And I suspect I'm seeing some results already – just got a turn back with 4-1 kill ratio after shooting down 95 zeros over Lunga according to the aircraft losses screen!

My previously reported discouragement is gone.

Wow. His pilot quality must truly suck. The A6M2 or A6M3 series is on par with any USN airframe available at the time, and probably only bested by the rare P38 appearances on the army side. That you can get 4:1 with probably inferior aircraft is either due to unit aggression / positioning / sweep surprise, pilot quality or all of the above.

Whichever the explanation, keep up the good work!



Yes to all of the above. Its hard to tell exactly who shot down what, but screen shot is attached. Some is surely FOW, the ratio is actually closer to 3-1, some of the zeros were escorts, plus its 2 day turns, but I'm excited. I'll be equally discouraged if next turn he's shrugged it off and the sweeps are back as if nothing happened.






If your opponent is planning to lose about 500 Zeros per month, you have nothing to worry about. One month and he has run out of decent pilots...

(in reply to stateless)
Post #: 18
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