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Fragment pulls....Gamey?

 
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Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 3:50:28 PM   
perkinh


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From: Central, NC
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I have been catching up on a lot of AARs of late, and "Fragment Pulls" seemed to have become a worrisome tactic. I am not talking about when you get fragments while attempting to evacuate a unit. That will happen, but if you made a good faith effort to get them ALL out then its just bad luck. What i have been seeing is a deliberate choice to pull a small group out, and leave the rest to die in place. You can of course then rebuild the unit in a nice safe place for later in the war. Its seems a little gamey to have to destroy the same unit in 44' that was destroyed in 42'.

This has been a predominately Allied ruse, and i wonder what would have been the real life political impact of such a tactic. Though i first noticed it in a game i was playing it then started to stick out in other AARs. The Allies are not the only ones though, i recently had a conversation with a Japanese fanbotwho was talking about taking fragment from all his units that he was thinking of using in an invasion of India, and placing them in Tokyo. That way if he lost all the units in India, he could start rebuilding on the HI. I dont believe the tactic would work as well for the Japanese, because of Manpower and Arms production, but it may make a difference in the late war if he has enough time.

What is the community thoughts on the matter? Is there a way to approach this with future opponents without giving them the impression that you are questioning there honor.



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RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 4:15:50 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabede


I have been catching up on a lot of AARs of late, and "Fragment Pulls" seemed to have become a worrisome tactic. I am not talking about when you get fragments while attempting to evacuate a unit. That will happen, but if you made a good faith effort to get them ALL out then its just bad luck. What i have been seeing is a deliberate choice to pull a small group out, and leave the rest to die in place. You can of course then rebuild the unit in a nice safe place for later in the war. Its seems a little gamey to have to destroy the same unit in 44' that was destroyed in 42'.

This has been a predominately Allied ruse, and i wonder what would have been the real life political impact of such a tactic. Though i first noticed it in a game i was playing it then started to stick out in other AARs. The Allies are not the only ones though, i recently had a conversation with a Japanese fanbotwho was talking about taking fragment from all his units that he was thinking of using in an invasion of India, and placing them in Tokyo. That way if he lost all the units in India, he could start rebuilding on the HI. I dont believe the tactic would work as well for the Japanese, because of Manpower and Arms production, but it may make a difference in the late war if he has enough time.

What is the community thoughts on the matter? Is there a way to approach this with future opponents without giving them the impression that you are questioning there honor.




In WWI, battalions involved in a 'big push' held out a cadre for rebuilding, so it's a valid historical tactic. The latest patch allows you to rebuild destroyed LCUs--there's no need to pull out fragments. I think it really improves the game.

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(in reply to perkinh)
Post #: 2
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 4:38:25 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		in the context of the game, yes it is a tad gamey, but the tactic isn't nearly as impacting as it used to be in stock, because now experience drops with added replacements. Before, you could rebuild the fragment (after promotion to parent unit) and it would retain it's old exp value. Refined device production numbers in AE also can make it take forever to build up said fragment back up to full strength.

Only time i evac units (creating fragments) is after the "all is lost" part of the battle. Till then....its "back to your post Mister!" I have a reputation to uphold among the 0's and 1's who do my bidding.



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Post #: 3
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 5:01:01 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline 		Gamey

And very much so at that.

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Post #: 4
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 5:02:29 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Gamey.


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Post #: 5
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 5:07:37 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		Yeah, it's so gamey they added a way to do it in a patch.

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Post #: 6
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 5:07:49 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		I agree with Nik. In AE the tactic has been severely weakened by the game system, to the point that it really isn't worth it except for the Base Forces. In most cases, those replacements are needed somewhere else, so pulling a fragment out for rebuilding is going to cost you elsewhere.

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Post #: 7
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 5:12:13 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Yeah, it's so gamey they added a way to do it in a patch.


What new feature are you referring to?

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Post #: 8
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 5:38:32 PM   
Lifer

 

Posts: 384
Joined: 6/8/2003
From: Caprica
Status: offline 		Spending PPs to buy back destroyed ground units.  It's in the beta.

Greg


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Post #: 9
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 5:59:40 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1610
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From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lifer

Spending PPs to buy back destroyed ground units.  It's in the beta.

Greg



Nice! I like it. This will allow for slightly more aggressive defense. (You can stand and fight to the last without having to worry about permanently losing a unit.)

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Post #: 10
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 6:10:51 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		I agree. The ability to 'buy back' with PP defunct units is a very welcome patch addition. It really renders this whole argument moot, IMO.

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Post #: 11
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 6:18:12 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		A question I asked after the beta came out was about those 6 American BF in the Philippines, but was not answered. Can you allow them to die there and later be able to buy them out and rebuild back in the USA?? I like to save them and the two large Dutch Aviation units, if possible.

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Post #: 12
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 6:28:52 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
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From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lifer

Spending PPs to buy back destroyed ground units.  It's in the beta.

Greg



Nice! I like it. This will allow for slightly more aggressive defense. (You can stand and fight to the last without having to worry about permanently losing a unit.)


For the record, I love the new feature, as it removes so much of the work to try to evacuate fragments. I just wonder how this previous post fits with the earlier post.

quote:

Gamey

And very much so at that.



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Post #: 13
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 6:30:42 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
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From: Graham, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

A question I asked after the beta came out was about those 6 American BF in the Philippines, but was not answered. Can you allow them to die there and later be able to buy them out and rebuild back in the USA?? I like to save them and the two large Dutch Aviation units, if possible.


It should allow any destroyed unit to be rebuilt, but beware of spending PP's and dumping lots of precious replacement devices into a unit that was Perm Restricted. It still will be.

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Post #: 14
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 6:33:40 PM   
perkinh


Posts: 181
Joined: 2/7/2010
From: Central, NC
Status: offline 		USS America...watch out for the allstar weekend. I evacuated early today to avoid any troubles on the roads. At least that was my excuse.


_____________________________

One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine.... is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine

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Post #: 15
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 6:42:12 PM   
Lifer

 

Posts: 384
Joined: 6/8/2003
From: Caprica
Status: offline 		You would want to save the Dutch as all units are rebuilt at the National home base IIRC. The US Base Forces should be back at San Francisco on their resurrection.

Greg

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Post #: 16
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 6:43:29 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabede

USS America...watch out for the allstar weekend. I evacuated early today to avoid any troubles on the roads. At least that was my excuse.



Hey Gabede, I didn't realize you were a local.

My son plays youth hockey, and he's actually doing a skills competition tonight as part of the All Star Fanfest tonight. We'll be heading into the fray.

We're HUGE hockey fans.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 17
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 7:22:43 PM   
findmeifyoucan

 

Posts: 579
Joined: 10/14/2009
Status: offline 		How do you rebuild destroyed LCU's exactly?
I sure would like to rebuild those engineer units I lost with my initial invasion force as the Japanese! :-)

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Post #: 18
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 8:39:18 PM   
Lifer

 

Posts: 384
Joined: 6/8/2003
From: Caprica
Status: offline 		With the beta, there is a button on the Intel screen below the ground unit info near the lower right side.

Greg

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Post #: 19
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 8:46:45 PM   
findmeifyoucan

 

Posts: 579
Joined: 10/14/2009
Status: offline 		Okay, but what if the ground unit is totally destroyed and is not on the map?

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Post #: 20
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 9:00:02 PM   
Lifer

 

Posts: 384
Joined: 6/8/2003
From: Caprica
Status: offline 		At work right now so I don't know the names on the buttons.  One is Reinforcements, the next is withdrawals and the one below is destroyed I think.  Click the third button and that brings up the list.  Click once to see what the unit returns with.  Close that and then I think a right click will spend the PPs and return the unit after a few weeks.  For some reason, the PP cost isn't on the screen when it opens the first time.  You have to click a unit then go back to get the cost.  You have to spend supply and devices from the pool to rebuild the unit and then spend the time to train it up to the national level.  That's it. 

Greg

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Post #: 21
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 9:05:52 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Make sure you have the latest patch that is still only available as a beta.  This is a brand new function.

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 22
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/28/2011 11:08:49 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lifer

You would want to save the Dutch as all units are rebuilt at the National home base IIRC. The US Base Forces should be back at San Francisco on their resurrection.

Greg


Actually, you would not want to waste time rebuilding Dutch units. Their force pools stops sending replacments in early 1942. You won't have any infantry squads. The base forces are worth rebuilding though.

Basically any American unit is worth rebuilding. They get plenty of replacment squads and devices. Be careful about British Australian and Indian units. You get very few British squads as replacment and all commonwealth units share the same devices and there is not an endless supply for these units.

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Post #: 23
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/29/2011 12:31:04 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Gamey

And very much so at that.


Ditto, plus the beta only allows the use of it to be exaggerated.

LOB isnt the same thing, they were not resting back in SF while there unit was destroyed on Bataan.

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Post #: 24
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/29/2011 1:25:04 AM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		If the player has unlimited reinforcements I'd call it gamey but since they don't I don't believe it is. Neither for the Axis  or  Allies.

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Post #: 25
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/29/2011 1:10:27 PM   
USS Henrico

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 8/2/2009
From: Charlottesville, VA
Status: offline 		Since we can rebuild completely destroyed air units, no reason why we can't do the same for LCUs.

I agree that this will lead to slightly more agressive game play, if the player isn't afraid of losing the ground unit forever unless he keeps a fragment in the rear somewhere. This is a good thing.

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Post #: 26
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/29/2011 1:23:40 PM   
Tullius

 

Posts: 1174
Joined: 11/18/2004
From: Saxony (Germany)
Status: offline 		When the player has to take the deceives out of the pool and pays the PP then it is not gamey. It was historical done many times - at least in Europe. The Wehrmacht rebuilt many divisons that were lost in Stalingrad.

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RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/29/2011 2:49:20 PM   
Lifer

 

Posts: 384
Joined: 6/8/2003
From: Caprica
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lifer

You would (edit: actually would not) want to save the Dutch as all units are rebuilt at the National home base IIRC. The US Base Forces should be back at San Francisco on their resurrection.

Greg


Actually, you would not want to waste time rebuilding Dutch units. Their force pools stops sending replacments in early 1942. You won't have any infantry squads. The base forces are worth rebuilding though.

Basically any American unit is worth rebuilding. They get plenty of replacment squads and devices. Be careful about British Australian and Indian units. You get very few British squads as replacment and all commonwealth units share the same devices and there is not an endless supply for these units.


Oops. That's what happens when you surf the forums at work and try to post between customers.

Greg

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Post #: 28
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 1/29/2011 5:58:47 PM   
d0mbo

 

Posts: 592
Joined: 8/21/2009
From: Holland
Status: offline 		 Since the latest beta patch i'd call it gamey as you are deliberately circumventing the PP cost to be paid for reinstating units by evacing a few support squads. 
If you aren't using the beta patch I think it's not gamey as there is no way to rebuild lost units then. I think the player should have the option (at a price in PP's) to reform units.

IMHO, it's not about the fact that you need to draw from the replacement pools (that's very much logical), but all about the PP's. It''s like the famous attaching units to an Air HQ and buy them out at 25% of the cost. PP's are there for a reason: to force the player to make some meaningful decisions.

My 0.02 €


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Post #: 29
RE: Fragment pulls....Gamey? - 2/1/2011 7:48:02 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: d0mbo

 Since the latest beta patch i'd call it gamey as you are deliberately circumventing the PP cost to be paid for reinstating units by evacing a few support squads. 
If you aren't using the beta patch I think it's not gamey as there is no way to rebuild lost units then. I think the player should have the option (at a price in PP's) to reform units.

IMHO, it's not about the fact that you need to draw from the replacement pools (that's very much logical), but all about the PP's. It''s like the famous attaching units to an Air HQ and buy them out at 25% of the cost. PP's are there for a reason: to force the player to make some meaningful decisions.

My 0.02 €




Actually, I was surprised how few PPs it cost to rebuild a unit. Hardly any at all. Perhaps this cost should be boosted up.

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Post #: 30
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