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Are T34's a little too powerful??

 
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Are T34's a little too powerful?? - 9/16/2002 11:21:18 AM   
Adamo

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 3/14/2002
Status: offline 		Is the T34 a little too dominant in SP or is it just me? I realize that the T34 was a better tank than most of the Panzers but I think it's a little exaggerated in this game.
Post #: 1
Re: Are T34's a little too powerful?? - 9/16/2002 2:53:30 PM   
Rune Iversen


Posts: 3630
Joined: 7/20/2001
From: Copenhagen. Denmark
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Adamo
[B]Is the T34 a little too dominant in SP or is it just me? I realize that the T34 was a better tank than most of the Panzers but I think it's a little exaggerated in this game. [/B][/QUOTE]


Exaggerated:confused: In what way, is it too fast, too heavily armoured or has it got too big a gun.

And in relation to which armoured vehicles (PZ IV, Tiger, Panther, Marder etc.) is it too good?

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Post #: 2
Re: Are T34's a little too powerful?? - 9/16/2002 5:05:21 PM   
Colonel von Blitz

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Adamo
[B]Is the T34 a little too dominant in SP or is it just me? I realize that the T34 was a better tank than most of the Panzers but I think it's a little exaggerated in this game. [/B][/QUOTE]

Too dominant?! Too good a gun? too much armor?...??

I find T-34 to be quite crappy actually...sure it can handle german shorter 50mm rounds without being knocked out, but otherwise I don't see them too dominant. IMHO they've got ****ty FC & RF values, inaccurate gun (at least earlier models)...only thing good, early in the war, is that they have good armor.

Colonel von Blitz

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Post #: 3
- 9/16/2002 6:49:52 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Everything is subjective.

If we are talking about technical comparisons you will get a different response from my reply which centers on my current long campaign against the computer.

I am in my 32 battle as of this post, it is 1943 and my unit is now Tigers and Panthers with an assortment of assault guns.
I have found that T-34s last as long as Shermans against my tanks (which is usually 2 rounds eh).

My usual process is set up a picket line of infantry (hate people surprising me), a line of 88s when on a defense mission, and a nice barrage of 150 arty on logical form up locations.
On attack I leave out the 88s, but hit with 150s any spot worthy of holding.

Whether attacking or defending, I find that my unit trashes anything it encounters.
Not sure why (hey I just don't feel like staring at numbers for several hours). I am suspecting unit experience.

The only weapon I hate is mines.

And the next game I play against a human, better have mines in their thinking hehe:) .

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Post #: 4
- 9/16/2002 10:32:35 PM   
orsha

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 8/16/2001
From: London
Status: offline 		I think the problem your getting is the against the T34/+ models with the front armor of 65mm instead of 45mm

I noticed a lot of new scenarios seems to be using them, and the computer AI picks them quite alot. It's not very realistic as they were extremely rare in reality, I never heard of one being used in battle reports.

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Post #: 5
Re: Re: Are T34's a little too powerful?? - 9/17/2002 1:55:13 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Colonel von Blitz
[B]

Too dominant?! Too good a gun? too much armor?...??

I find T-34 to be quite crappy actually...sure it can handle german shorter 50mm rounds without being knocked out, but otherwise I don't see them too dominant. IMHO they've got ****ty FC & RF values, inaccurate gun (at least earlier models)...only thing good, early in the war, is that they have good armor.

Colonel von Blitz [/B][/QUOTE]

much depends on the experience and morale of the crews of russian AFV. after battle no. 6 or 7 (can´t remember right now) of russian steel camp, i would say T34 and KV ARE powerful!

but i think this will quite fast change in late 42 if encountering the first tigers and Pz.4 with the good gun.

i noticed that hits from 37mm and 50mm german early war guns VERY seldom can harm the russians,but in some battles much T34 have lost their main guns, Mg´s or are immobilied. but ralely destroyed at the whole.

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Post #: 6
- 9/17/2002 3:23:42 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		The crappy optics is what does it for me.


Ill take a tank with a decent gun and a god chace of hitting its target to a tank with heavy armor a great gun and no chance if hitting.


When I played through LV I learned not to fear the T-34's because I knew that I could keep driving driving and not get hit and get on their flank for the killing shot.


But.....I feel the T-34 is right on the money as far as power in the game.
The T-35 85 is the second best tank in the game in my opinion.

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Post #: 7
- 9/17/2002 4:51:52 AM   
Commander Klank

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 10/15/2000
From: Killleen, Texas
Status: offline 		What are you fighting them with? Armored cars or something?

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Post #: 8
- 9/17/2002 6:01:38 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]What are you fighting them with? Armored cars or something?[/QUOTE]

Who was that question too?

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Post #: 9
- 9/17/2002 12:00:42 PM   
OKW-73

 

Posts: 237
Joined: 9/1/2001
From: Cyberspace, Finland
Status: offline 		T-34's are not to be worry about..KV's are, they just dont understand when its time to die ;)

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Post #: 10
- 9/17/2002 12:13:30 PM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		Kv's have crappy optics as well.



And the low exp of russian tropps certainly doesnt help.


What were they using back then "iron" sights?

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Post #: 11
Re: Re: Re: Are T34's a little too powerful?? - 9/17/2002 12:19:17 PM   
Colonel von Blitz

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank W.
[B]much depends on the experience and morale of the crews of russian AFV. after battle no. 6 or 7 (can´t remember right now) of russian steel camp, i would say T34 and KV ARE powerful! [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm talking about the game default, when T-34/76 is bought for PBEM-game. Morale and experience sucks early in the war.

An elite crew developing through a campaign is another matter. Given enough experience, a crew equipped with sticks and stones will take out a King Tiger...in the world of SPWaW :D

Colonel

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Post #: 12
- 9/17/2002 12:23:10 PM   
Colonel von Blitz

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fallschirmjager
[B]Kv's have crappy optics as well.

And the low exp of russian tropps certainly doesnt help.

What were they using back then "iron" sights? [/B][/QUOTE]

Early in the war, KV has the advantage of being practically indestructible. So crappy optics doesn't really bother since you can drive the tank almost to the opposing hex and blast the enemy tank away, while his rounds just bounce off your armor :D And from point blank range, it really doesn't matter what kind of optics one has.

Hmm, if I remember correctly, some finnish tanks had "iron sights"...probably Voriax knows better, since I'm no expert in finnish equipment.

Colonel

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Post #: 13
Re: Re: Re: Re: Are T34's a little too powerful?? - 9/17/2002 4:21:03 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Colonel von Blitz
[B]

I'm talking about the game default, when T-34/76 is bought for PBEM-game. Morale and experience sucks early in the war.

An elite crew developing through a campaign is another matter. Given enough experience, a crew equipped with sticks and stones will take out a King Tiger...in the world of SPWaW :D

Colonel [/B][/QUOTE]

you may be right. but put a similar weak crew in a pz3 g/h or a pz4 d/e and compare to a T34 perhaps the results change.

i think the modeling of the russian tanks is quite okay in the game, quite difficult to destroy, but with low exp. crews and bad optics they will not destroy very much on their own.

but there where some events in babarossa where a single KV or T34 blocked germans advance.

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Post #: 14
- 9/18/2002 5:01:33 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Hmm, if I remember correctly, some finnish tanks had "iron sights"...probably Voriax knows better, since I'm no expert in finnish equipment. [/QUOTE]


Lol I was joking about the iron sights.



[QUOTE]Early in the war, KV has the advantage of being practically indestructible. So crappy optics doesn't really bother since you can drive the tank almost to the opposing hex and blast the enemy tank away, while his rounds just bounce off your armor And from point blank range, it really doesn't matter what kind of optics one has. [/QUOTE]

Again while playing LV I never gave them that chance.

I used their low mobility against them by sending 3-4 tanks/ atg halftracks against one kv flanking it while keeping 1 tank square in its sights. One tank on either side and one tank its ints rear would hit it 5-10 times a turn tearing off radiomasts, main guns, Mg's, optics and treads.
After a few turns they couldnt move due to supression/damage and couldnt fire.
If I got lucky I could knock one out.
More than often the crew would bail and id machine gun them within a few hexes.

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Post #: 15
- 9/18/2002 7:46:55 AM   
darroch

 

Posts: 210
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: US
Status: offline 		Hi!

After playtesting over 30 Russian Steel battles, I have some experience using T34 and KV tanks against various forms of German armor.

My personal favorite (excluding a childish weakness for KV2s) is the KV1A for a combination of ok speed, decent gun, and decent armor. Not as fast as the T34 it does actually reach the battlefield - my KV2s usually arrive late if at all...

I have found crew experience to be the dominant factor - not optics...the KV had a larger turret and therefore your veteran crew will get 4-5 shots per turn...going to 5-6 when elite...

There are pre-1942 T34s and post1942 T34s....both do nicely against the Germans until about March 1942...the pre-1942 ones are nearly useless after March 1942 because their AP cannot reliably penetrate the Mk3 frontal armor anymore...

Through 1941, the AI Germans could nearly always nail a few of my T34s with tank gunnery - vulnerable hits and such but the artillery and Luftwaffe generally suppressed them beyond use...in 1941, once suppressed, a T34 is as good as dead once the GE infantry reaches it...

April 1942 and later sees a shift to dominant German tank gunnery that lasts at least until late 1944...

I'm playtesting early 1943 and my rule of thumb is that if I don't get the first shot I have less than a 50-50 chance of being alive to take a second shot - there are too many Mk4gs running around...

My KV1C tanks (Enhanced armor - heaviest in Soviet inventory until JS series) have been sliced open at 6-10 hexes by: MK3 j/n/l/j-specials (50mm/L60 gun - presumably APCR shot), Stug F, F/8, Mk4 f/s2 and Mk4 g..I have had MK3h get lucky kills which roils me!

88s have been a mixed bag - many times my T34s have taken direct hits from hidden 88s and suffered suppression only...then there are those one shot kills - wide variation...

Pak76 and Pak75s are invariably deadly and the Pak50 just snipes until they get you...annoying...they cut through KV frontal armor...

So, your 1941 inventory of German tanks is at a distinct disadvantage (historical from what I've heard) but with the long 50, things get better in a hurry...

And the T34 is frustrating to the max if you are trying to kill 1942 German armor - my record is 54 consecutive hits against Mk3 frontal armor without a penetration - 10 T34s of various classes couldn't do him in...finally his crew bailed with massive migraine headaches and was machine gunned...


So, the T34 is no wonder tank but it is an excellent combination of mobility, hitting power and armor...

In 1941, German accounts seem to indicate that everything was needed to kill determined T34s: artillery, airstrikes, satchel charges, antitank mines, and massed tank gunnery to the flanks and rear....

For a change of perspective, take 2 companies of T34s in Russian Steel as the core of your combined arms team and add a couple KV1As...

I think you'll find they are more vulnerable than you might think...

Cheers,

Brad

(Oddly enough, the M4 SHerman 1943 III lend lease variant compares favorably in terms of general utility! WHo'd'thunk?)

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Post #: 16
Get 'im off! Get 'im off!! - 9/18/2002 11:39:23 PM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		One thing I've noticed fighting soviet T34s with German armor is to not let the buggers get too close. It seems (in my humble play observations) that when those soviet tanks get adjacent to you, the ricochet chance goes waay up fast. I've watched my Tigers regularly unload 2-3 rounds at 50m range and hit, but do no appreciable damage!

Take on the soviets at the furthest possible range whenever you can, and retreat if necessary to avoid face-to-face exchanges.

If you're the soviets, then use lots of smoke for cover, tank-riding infantry for assaults, and charge in for the kill at point-blank range whenever possible. :D

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Post #: 17
- 9/20/2002 8:45:19 AM   
Greg McCarty

 

Posts: 234
Joined: 6/15/2000
From: woodbury,mn,usa
Status: offline 		While the t-34 is resistive to early war flat trajectory guns on the front armor, I have found them to be consistantly vulnerable to
side shots from anything high velocity; from the 28mm tapered bore to 75mm pak and beyond. The real issue is that in 41-42;
the Germans found the t-34 quite breathtaking in the hands of anything like an average crew. Why ? In contrast, most German vehicles during that period were not nearly as resistant to hits on frontal armor; the 76 mm gun the t-34 sported from the getgo, while not always handled professionally, was certainly going to hurt a pzkw III or IV almost no matter where it struck. In contrast, the 50mm German short barrel before the L60 could not boast the same.
Its no accident that the Germans captured Soviet 76mms by the thousands during this period and mounted them on anything that would roll in an effort to upgun themselves until better main guns were introduced. The fact is, the t-34 was almost revolutionary in 1941. It had it all -in spades: sufficient main weapon throw weight, high mobility on or off road, ideal track weight distribution, the first really good use of sloped armor, which kept weight reasonable, while making it rather survivable. Mass produced in quantity, even with less than stellar crew training, the thing was bound to be a nightmare. As one German General remarked in an official assessment in 1941 --"I find this (the appearance of the t-34) very disturbing."

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Post #: 18
Re: Are T34's a little too powerful?? - 9/20/2002 8:55:17 PM   
john g

 

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Adamo
[B]Is the T34 a little too dominant in SP or is it just me? I realize that the T34 was a better tank than most of the Panzers but I think it's a little exaggerated in this game. [/B][/QUOTE]

This is the opposite position from the messages that went around when they changed the armor quality and German 50mm penetration.

Back then the overwhelming cry was that the T34 was emasculated now that 50mm AT guns could punch thru them at 10+ hexes.

If you think that the T34 is better than PZKW III and IV, try it against 38t's and captured French R-35's. Several units had to make do with them for tanks.
thanks, John.

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Post #: 19
- 9/20/2002 11:23:33 PM   
Jacc

 

Posts: 265
Joined: 4/30/2001
From: Viikki Imperium
Status: offline 		"...at 200 meters, the 50mm shots will stick into the front armour of T-34 tank." - German report at June, 1941. (Source: Achtungpanzer.com ja "Punaiset panssarit" [the Red Tanks]).

Think about it.

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Post #: 20
KVs and T-34s.. - 9/21/2002 4:18:22 PM   
wulfir


Posts: 3091
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I'm fighting (not playing hehe) the Russian Steel Campaign right now and my tank force at present includes 6 KV-1s, 6 T-34s and one KV-2 (because it's kind of cool to have around).

The KVs really get to earn their pay. I use them, well abuse might be a better word, for just about everything.

The T-34s OTOH I use mostly to support the infantry or preferably against light Fritz armour. If I don't 'nurse' them around they burn.

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