Slitherine

quote:


Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland

London, August 25, 1939.

"Should one of the Contracting Parties become engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of aggression by the latter against that Contracting Party, the other Contracting Party will at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power."


Yale Law School - The Avalon Project (Documents in Law, History and Diplomacy)

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/blbk19.asp

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland (and joined Germany in doing so)?


I have read really a lot of historic books and I own quite a large collection of them as well but I don't recall ever finding the proper explanation for the above...

Does anyone here knows something more about this issue?

quote:


Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland

London, August 25, 1939.

"Should one of the Contracting Parties become engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of aggression by the latter against that Contracting Party, the other Contracting Party will at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power."


Yale Law School - The Avalon Project (Documents in Law, History and Diplomacy)

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/blbk19.asp

Leo "Apollo11"

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike29

Really interesting issue, never thought about it. From formal point Soviet Union didn't declared war to Poland, but invaded to protect Belorussian and Ukrainian people from German agressor. Fro the moment of invading Poland already does not eist as independent state.



"The Polish-German War has revealed the internal bankruptcy of the Polish State. During the course of ten days' hostilities Poland has lost all her industrial areas and cultural centres. Warsaw, as the capital of Poland, no longer exists. The Polish Government has disintegrated, and no longer shows any sign of life. This means that the Polish State and its Government have, in point of fact, ceased to exist. In the same way, the Agreements concluded between the U.S.S.R. and Poland have ceased to operate. Left to her own devices and bereft of leadership, Poland has become a suitable field for all manner of hazards and surprises, which may constitute a threat to the U.S.S.R. For these reasons the Soviet Government, who has hitherto been neutral, cannot any longer preserve a neutral attitude towards these facts.

The Soviet Government also cannot view with indifference the fact that the kindred Ukrainian and White Russian people, who live on Polish territory and who are at the mercy of fate, should be left defenceless.

In these circumstances, the Soviet Government have directed the High Command of the Red Army to order troops to cross the frontier and to take under their protection the life and property of the population of Western Ukraine and Western White Russia.

At the same time the Soviet Government propose to take all measures to extricate the Polish people from the unfortunate war into which they were dragged by their unwise leaders, and enable them to live a peaceful life.

People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs of the U.S.S.R. V. Molotov[61]"

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

German and Soviet officers shaking hands, Poland, late Sep 1939




It was all Soviet propaganda... of course it was... but Britain and France should have known better especially since they signed treaty with Poland...


In any case this come to my mind this morning - I am glad that it intrigued you guys!



Leo "Apollo11"

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland (and joined Germany in doing so)?

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Is "should have known better" fair? I think the governments were being practical and just reacting to what was the really bad situation they now faced. Poland was beaten and, rightly or wrongly, the Anglo-French forces had done nothing - apart from the woefully pathetic Saarland offensive - to help. If no help was forthcoming to Poland in response to a German attack, there was nothing to be gained in trying to aid Poland - and everything to be lost in the west - by declaring war on the Soviets.

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
HeeHeeHee... so no mention of the secret protocol you signed the previous month then Mr Molotov, agreeing to carve Poland up once the Germans had invaded?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

German and Soviet officers shaking hands, Poland, late Sep 1939




It was all Soviet propaganda... of course it was... but Britain and France should have known better especially since they signed treaty with Poland...


In any case this come to my mind this morning - I am glad that it intrigued you guys!

Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Is "should have known better" fair? I think the governments were being practical and just reacting to what was the really bad situation they now faced. Poland was beaten and, rightly or wrongly, the Anglo-French forces had done nothing - apart from the woefully pathetic Saarland offensive - to help. If no help was forthcoming to Poland in response to a German attack, there was nothing to be gained in trying to aid Poland - and everything to be lost in the west - by declaring war on the Soviets.

My "should have known better" was regarding official Soviet explanation (i.e. not invasion but "help for Ukrainian and White Russian people")!


And yes... the Poland was defeated by the Germans at that time... but treaties are treaties (and politics are politics)... if the moral higher ground was to be maintained the Soviet Union should have been (and rightfully so) declared as aggressor same as Germany...


BTW, this whole issue is really interesting because Hitler always wanted to go to East only (i.e. "Lebensraum") and Western powers really didn't have anything against Hitler waging war against Stalin (their communist arch-enemy) but Poland was in-between and because of Poland there was now war in the west as well...


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
[EDIT]
Sighted typo fixed...

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

Stalin was a paranoid and thought all the western democracies wanted was a war between the USSR and Germany...

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


The UK had spent the last 300 years ensuring that no one power had hedgemony on the continent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike29

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


The UK had spent the last 300 years ensuring that no one power had hedgemony on the continent.

Except British all over the world LOL

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike29

quote:

Stalin was a paranoid and thought all the western democracies wanted was a war between the USSR and Germany...

Was he?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

So... can we find out if this was ever:

#1
Discussed by British War Cabinet

#2
Discussed in British Parliament

#2
Discussed between British and French government



Leo "Apollo11"

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Nice topic Leo. Will have to give it some thought for sure.

My early response would be that the Allies had already declared war on Germany before Russia moved in. I don't know that it would have made a lot of sense to immediately make peace with Germany and then everyone declare war on Russia. I also don't think any of the three (Germany, France, and Britain) were ready for a show down with Russia in 1939. All three, especially Germany, would be far stronger 9 months later when the campaign in the west opened. The other issue that would have remained would have been the question of a independant Polish state.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Nice topic Leo. Will have to give it some thought for sure.

My early response would be that the Allies had already declared war on Germany before Russia moved in. I don't know that it would have made a lot of sense to immediately make peace with Germany and then everyone declare war on Russia. I also don't think any of the three (Germany, France, and Britain) were ready for a show down with Russia in 1939. All three, especially Germany, would be far stronger 9 months later when the campaign in the west opened. The other issue that would have remained would have been the question of a independant Polish state.

warspite1

Why do you say making peace with Germany? That isn't in the equation at all. The question is why didn't the British and French declare war on the Soviet Union too?

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland (and joined Germany in doing so)?

Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

with a European Power

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

quote:

with a European Power

This, if threatened to lose face, GB could argue that Soviet Union is an Asiatic Power, since most of it's land lies in Asia :)

On a more serious note, I remember the Allies were much closer to war with SU during the Winter War. They even planned to send some units to help Finland, which were later re-routed to Norway. All in all, it was a clever plot by Stalin not to invade Poland on day 1 as a "simple" agressor along the Reich (I guess this would have to result in an Allied-Soviet war since it would be illogical to issue an ultimatum to just one invader), and later his public claims of "help", supported by orders of Polish SQH not to fire upon Soviets, unless fired upon (which happened quite often, though), and the general lack of knowledge what happend in eastern Poland (and what would happen soon) weren't clear in the West. Of course the secret clauses of M-R pact that weren't known publicly at the time, were the cause of Soviet expansion (and in general the imperialism of a totalitarian regime ruling a world superpower). Later on, when the war dragged on and didn't seem easy anymore, it would be foolish of the Allies to add one more enemy to their list. They already had problems to contain Germany... If a war was to happen it would have to be declared before the invasion of France, with the higest probabilty between 17th September and 5th October 1939 and during the Winter War.

edit: hehe, I wrote in the similar vein as turtlefang, whose post I didn't read before writing mine :)

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike29
It's generally known, yes we signed. What we had to do? All 38 and 39 we were trying to sign anty-german defensive alliance with you, and British politics except Churchill did not wanted to cooperate with us. Read Churchill, he said because of unwise British politics of that time (Baldwin, then Chamberlain) Russian army invaided to Poland not as their friends against Germany, but occupied former Russian territory as agressor (sorry for my English, I read him on Russian).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
... would result in a war with the Britain, which Germany could not win.

quote:

ORIGINAL: elxaime

I don't want to minimize or excuse the culpability of Hitler and Stalin for their evil. However the politics of this era were complicated. We should try to avoid falling too early into seeing this through the lens of the Cold War. At that time, the political divisions of Europe following World War One were still relatively fresh. For example:

- the prior year 1938 German annexation of Czechoslovakia also featured Polish and Hungarian land grabs of Czechoslovak territory, as well as the creation of the Slovak State (since recreated and now an EU member); the area of Czechoslovakia taken by Poland had a Polish minority

- the main Polish areas being claimed by the Soviet Union had existed as part of the Russian Czarist Empire for centuries. It is not hard to imagine, had the Russian Monarchy still existed, seeing France and Britain giving guarantees to the Czar for these lands. Certainly, the West did not go to war for Polish nationalism in 1914

- the Polish eastern regions were also subject to other nationalist claims. In 1919, the new Poland had fought not only the Bolshevists, but also the Lithuanians. Parts of 1939 Poland included lands taken from Lithuania in a plebiscite the Lithuanians had never recognized (Poland had issued an ultimatum to Lithuania in 1938). Newly-incorporated areas with ethnic Ukrainian majorities had to reluctantly be given local autonomy. The 1939 Polish state, like its German and Russian neighbors, envisioned itself as a multiethnic but caused tension by promoting the Polish language and culture over others

- For their part, prior to their own extinguishing, the Czechoslovak government had supported revision of the German-Polish frontiers and resisted Polish attempts to form an alliance (French attempts to form an alliance of the smaller Eastern European states during this time also failed)

In the churning environment following the collapse of the German, Russian and Hapsburg Monarchies, might was often right. Hitler, of course, took this to its most evil and genocidal and Stalin was not far behind. But even the smaller nations carried their own sets of brass knuckles around and didn't hesitate to use them on those perceived as weaker than they.

History has tended to brush these complexities under the rug. The most obvious example was a memorial I saw in Romania to their World War Two war dead. The dates on the memorial were 1944-45, leaving out the hundreds of thousands of casualties suffered when Romania was allied to Germany (the Japanese are hardly the only ones who practice historical revisionism).