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Flare for dane.. - 2/22/2013 3:11:32 AM

wodin

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From: England
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How you getting on with fatigue now? For me it's hindering the game and my enjoyment to be honest. These changes are supposed to entail less micro management (well maybe not the fatigue mechanic but on the whole they want as little micromanagement as possible)yet I'm finding some things they are doing is increasing the need for micromanagement. I'm also not convinced it's realistic same as having crew members who have left their AFV's to fight alongside the Inf to me isn't realistic either.

< Message edited by wodin -- 2/22/2013 3:12:34 AM >

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RE: Flare for dane.. - 2/22/2013 7:32:12 AM

flashburn

Posts: 80
Joined: 6/19/2012
From: WASHINGTON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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You have to remember these patches are listed as BETA. They are in open testing. Of course there will be issues. Which is why they are BETA.

On the armored crewmen. They can only switch roles within same platoon Per Andrey. So i guess instead of disbanding a destroyed/damaged vehicle you can switch crews to other vehicles to fill roles. That one is pretty legit. As it is not over whole side, just within a given unit. Not sure how its handled with mixed infantry/armor units. Mainly some Red Army t34/smg platoons some of the campaigns use. Certainly not an issue for German tank units. For panzer grenadier units not a clue.... However taking a vehicle driver and throwing into line platoon of same platoon is legit. He is 1st an infantry guy and 2nd a vehicle driver. AS far as I can tell it is little different than disbanding a unit and having personal go to other squads. Its been like that since K43.

I like the fatique thing. That really is not much of an issue IMO. Its the wierd guys within same squad all over the place when ordered to move. Some of this in player error. IE using wrong motifier to move units long distances. BUT some is total legit annoying. Its a beta patch. Andrey says for slowest movement motifier it will change to squad waits for slowest member in future patches. SO to move a few KM or something dont tell them to run the fastest they can....... Tell em to march it and they should all get there as a unit. In "next" patch. In options I beleave you can TURN IT OFF as well.

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RE: Flare for dane.. - 2/22/2013 8:57:20 AM

wodin

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Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
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Yeah i get it's a beta..but it's a worry and a pointer to what Graviteams vision is and I think the fatigue in particular will cause more micromanagement. Also I really don't think tank crew etc went and joined up with an Inf platoon to carry on fighting..possibly Russians did but Germans def wouldn't..they'd make their way back behind their lines if able. The only time I see that happening is if they where overun and had to fight on foot. Just doesn't seem right at all to me.

Hopefully the fatigue will be tweaked..I don't really go along with fatigue in tactical games to be honest. Only new recruits I'd imagine be less fit than troops been in the field for three or four weeks or more and they'd struggle keeping up possibly. However to be honest I don't really see a need for it as such. I'd rather see things maybe like accuracy deteriorate just abit due to fatigue as it would be more combat fatigue I think, or if you have to then slow the squad down abit but keep them all reasonably together. One man out of a platoon or even out of a coy falling behind or being a pain fair enough..no more then that it adds nothing really to the game except added micromanagement and annoyance.

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RE: Flare for dane.. - 2/23/2013 5:56:20 AM

Dane49

Posts: 443
Joined: 6/26/2012
From: Riverview ,Florida
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As I stated on the Graviteam board,fatigue wasn't so much the issue as straggling was for me.
Andrey said He would tweek it,we'll see.
I can see a realistic need for straggling if the unit was in full retreat during the campaign,but alot of other factors I think would have to be taken into account also before I think it became a major problem like the experience of the unit the morale rating and then the fatigue level.

There were a few units around Kharkov at this time in the German Army that would qualify for this type of behaviour,but the units being depicted so far in the game like the 320th Inf Div,the SS units and the Panzer Divs all retreated in very good order during the campaign and were able to reorganize and counterattack weeks later,not the kind of units I think would have straggling issues.I also think SS guys would have even more reasons not to straggle for fear of capture and execution.

Another thing is alot of these German soldiers had already marched half way across Russia,and should be used to long forced marches by now.

Maybe straggling was a real issue on the Russian side and Andrey thinks it should apply across the board for all the combatants IDK.

I'm still undecided about the path Graviteam is taking with the new game play mechanics so I'm not ready to give it a thumbs down yet.I'm going to tool around with it some more and try different things(I played a certain way in this game for a year so I feel like a novice again).I 've yet to master the new commo mechanics also.

The new movement mechanics have put a real crimp in my shock and awe game play strategies and I see I will now have to take my time and be more methodical.I used to be able to mass all my heavy weapons and arty on a certain point of the battlefield and punch a hole in the defense and then rush my troops thru to regroup behind the enemy main line then roll up the flanks from behind,but that doesn't work well anymore(My troops now are too slow and only half make it to the rally point in time to regroup and mount the next phase of attack).The enemy now has way too much time to recover and prepare before I'm capable of launching the next series of attacks.I'm taking twice as many casualties then I used too,and the results of my attacks lately are pretty poor also.

I've always liked the RTS aspect of this game but now it feels slow and I have to think more before acting,and since these guys are moving slower I have more time to think.I rarely use the pause button anymore because I don't really need it.The battles unfold now at a much slower pace before hitting a crescendo so I don't ever feel the sense of urgency I once felt before.It's also more difficult to knock the enemy off balance and keep him that way before He has a chance to recover and react.

Another thing I have to take into consideration was that most of the battles in APOS take place in poor weather conditions and the new mechanics have taken that into effect,since the next series of games will take place during the Summer maybe it won't effect my style of game play as much.

I never really liked the Volokonovka map much so I haven't tested my theories on that matter yet.I'll wait and see how everything plays out with the new system with the new game when it is released.

< Message edited by Dane49 -- 2/23/2013 7:31:46 AM >

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RE: Flare for dane.. - 2/23/2013 6:34:32 AM

Dane49

Posts: 443
Joined: 6/26/2012
From: Riverview ,Florida
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As far as the tank crewmen manning other tanks or acting as infantry,that doesn't bother me for 2 reasons:

1)Most of the time my crew never survives the bailout and those that do are not very effective afterwards and usually head for the rear anyways.As far as I'm concerned the crewmen aren't really a factor as infantry and I haven't noticed them to be anything more than excess baggage like mortar crews who are out of ammo and used as infantry.

2)I think it's realistic for crewmen from other out of service tanks to replace the killed or wounded on other tanks in the same platoon or even same company.Generally they would make their way to the rear and if another tank was available they would be formed into adhoc crews anyways.And to tell you the truth I would like to be able to use them to man AT or Inf Guns also if no tanks are available for them to crew.

All in all though the tank crew thing isn't very important to me.Unit cohesion and command and control are the major issues for me and I'm trying to take into consideration that this is game made by Russians for Russians and they see things much differently then those of us from the west.

With that said,this is still my favorite tactical game and though I may not be happy with everything in the game I'm still very impressed with the overall product,and Andrey seems to be fairly persuadable on certain issues if you can put forth a strong case that doesn't eat too much into the budget to make the changes you request.Even with the glib attitude and all I think He is really trying to turn out a very realistic depiction of tactical combat on the Russian front and for the price Graviteam sells this game for you can't really go wrong here.This game has improved immensely over the last year and I'm sure it will be a much better product a year from now.We just have to give it time and put forth our suggestions in a realistic manner and usually Andrey and Graviteam fixes the broken things and improves them.

< Message edited by Dane49 -- 2/23/2013 7:03:05 AM >

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RE: Flare for dane.. - 2/25/2013 12:38:22 PM

flashburn

Posts: 80
Joined: 6/19/2012
From: WASHINGTON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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just want to say that weather DOES effect the soldiers BIG time. As so much takes place in horid weather............ Putting them in building helps a ton on them regaining strength. I like all this as it adds more elements of being forced to use your brain. Depth of planning and all that. When you do it right, vary rewarding :D.

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Post #: 6