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Tank Panic and Satchel Charges

 
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Tank Panic and Satchel Charges - 5/3/2003 12:34:03 AM   
Akmatov

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 7/26/2000
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		I'm playing around creating my own German OB, kind of on the basis of how things might have been better organized in a slightly divergent timeline, and I've developed a question about tank panic.

The manual states that infantry units without anti-tank weapons may panic when in contact with tanks. However, no where in the manual is the term "anti-tank weapon" defined. Usually this is kind of obvious, but . . ..

For the purposes of preventing tank panic will satchel charges or molotov cocktails act as anti-tank weapons?

I and the more rational & humane Reich thank you. :)
Post #: 1
- 5/3/2003 1:13:08 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		I wonder if grenades count? How many units are there, infantry-wise anyway, that don't have grenades? If grenades do count, then that pretty much relegates it to the realm of MG-only AFV's and maybe foot MG units.

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Post #: 2
- 5/3/2003 1:44:33 AM   
Akmatov

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 7/26/2000
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Can't imagine grenades would count. They are pretty much intended for anti-personnel use.

Molotov cocktails are pretty poor AT-weapons, but that was what they were for, so they should probably count. AT-rifles are pretty poor weapons too, but I'm sure they must count as AT weapons.

I assume the rational behind the tank panic rule is the reasonable panic resulting from confronting a tank when you know you have nothing with which to combat it. I think the satchel charge is usually a more potent early AT-weapon than some of the ATRs.

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Post #: 3
- 5/3/2003 4:54:25 AM   
Charles2222


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quote:

I think the satchel charge is usually a more potent early AT-weapon than some of the ATRs.


Definitely. I've thought about it a little bit more and it does I've seen a number of regular infantry units panic, but then again the rule states, if you were quoting, that non-AT units "may" panic, but while that infers that those with AT capability do not, it's not a direct statement, so, maybe you will see those with AT capability panic but on a lesser scale. It does seem, however, that when I did see a regular infantry panic, that it was those (which really aren't regular infantry, I just think in those terms) Polish, what they call gun crews or something. It's like a real shoddy infantry unit that has like two rifles, and MIGHT, have a 3rd weapon like grenades. They're as strong a candidate that I can think of that resemble regular infantry but might not have AT capability.

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Post #: 4
- 5/3/2003 7:45:31 PM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline 		I'm not sure if I'd agree with the idea that the early war satchel charge is a better tank killer than the early war ATR. ATRs can quite easily kill most of the light tanks from a good distance, and are pretty effective well into the war, if used right.

I've used them well in Stalingrad PBeM fights, playing the Soviets, using the ATR teams as a picket line to knock out German recon vehicles and immobilize heavy armor. Even up to the end of the war, you can tread kill with ATRs.

If you can get to one hex range, and if you can get a hit on the tank, a satchel is good, but, those can be big ifs.

Of course, the AI got one of my tanks last week, in a scen, when the satchel charge missed the tank, landed on the bridge that the tank was on, and blew the bridge up!

Alex

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Post #: 5
- 5/3/2003 10:11:36 PM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		Test will be forthcoming. Representative array of recon units, line infantry, special ops, engineers, MG's, and specifically A/T units, all set to the teens, then the thirties for command, experience, and morale.

Alexandra, the ATR is dangerous after 1940 IMO in that it may give the wielder a false sense of security. The weapon is an interdiction and harassment weapon so far as deployment is concerned. That is, it cannot (aside from Magic BB Syndrome) take out a dedicated battle tank. What it can do is intercept incoming supplies/troops (especially in H2H with an HE loadout) and give the tanks something else to worry about by taking potshots. If they're not dealt with, a rear hit might do some damage, or the sheer volume of ultra-velocity rounds might break something.

Like everything else, it needs to be used appropriately.

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Post #: 6
- 5/3/2003 11:04:41 PM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		Okay, results:

Any infantry can panic, and any non-tank vehicle can panic, at the sight of a tank. Period.

Now, those armed with anti-armor weapons will usually not panic AND flee at the sight of a tank. Anti-armor weapons include:

Bazookas, Satchel Charges, Flamethrowers, .50-cal HMG's, anti-tank rifles.

Anti-Armor weapons do NOT include:

SMG's, Rifles, LMG's, MMG's, and HMG's without AP rounds; hand grenades (NOR rifle-grenades--they don't count!); sniper rifles; 4.5 inch rockets (!!).

Simply having armor does not cause one to be a tank. I have seen 1949 US Prime Movers with nice armor and a Ma Deuce (.50 HMG) panic at the sight of a tank. As the manual states, though, having friendly armor nearby reduces or eliminates the risk of Tiger Terror... even if it's a Japanese tank. ;)

Crewmen will abandon artillery pieces if they are Panzer-Panicked.

Engineers and other units armed with anti-armor weapons were interesting. I had an FT Engineer unit with an FT and a Satchel Charge panic three times in one round. It did not flee until AFTER the round, when auto-rally and retreats are determined. Same for some Rangers.

I also had an M9 Bazooka team--15 for Experience, Morale, Rally, and all command ratings--stand their ground and destroy a Konigstiger with one hit!!!!!!!! A US Rifle Squad with Garand, BAR, and Grenades also didn't flee, but was pinned. So not only can anyone flee, but anyone can stand their ground and kill you too.

Hope this helps...

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Post #: 7
- 5/3/2003 11:34:47 PM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Seems a good test, Irinami. It seems to me that any weapon that has Penetration is a candidate for being an AT weapon. Would you concur?

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Post #: 8
- 5/4/2003 12:37:09 AM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		Negative, Cap.

Hand grenades and Rifle grenades have penetration, but do not qualify as anti-tank weapons. Apparently only demolition and specifically A/T weapons count.

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Post #: 9
- 5/5/2003 8:38:54 AM   
john g

 

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Irinami
[B]Okay, results:

Any infantry can panic, and any non-tank vehicle can panic, at the sight of a tank. Period.

[/B][/QUOTE]

You left out that light tanks will flee from heavier tanks as well, I have seen m3 and m5 tanks run away from tigers to many times to not notice it.
thanks, John.

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Post #: 10
- 5/5/2003 10:12:37 AM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		Whups, thanks john g. I knew my test was too easy. ;)

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Post #: 11
Thanks for the great info - 5/5/2003 10:52:03 PM   
Akmatov

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 7/26/2000
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks guys. I had prowled around in the manual and found nothing. The info you all provided, Irinami especially, was great

I'm playing with the idea of AT-Teams being separate from the Squads so the AT-Teams can be upgraded periodically to stay UTD with the latest AT weapondry without taking an experience hit in upgrading the entire squad. But I didn't then want to set up the Squads for frequent tank panic because they might lack an AT weapon. You've provided some good stuff to concider.

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Post #: 12
- 5/6/2003 6:40:32 AM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		A pleasure and honour. Just let us know what you come up with. :)

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Post #: 13
- 5/6/2003 6:41:09 AM   
Charles2222


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Joined: 3/12/2001
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quote:

I also had an M9 Bazooka team--15 for Experience, Morale, Rally, and all command ratings--stand their ground and destroy a Konigstiger with one hit!!!!!!!!


Ahhhhh, the sniper-taking-out-a-Tiger syndrome has advanced a bit.

I'll tell you something that I bet will panic in limited circumstances, which is REALLY odd, and that is an ATG.

I wonder if one of the main factors in the formula involves the size of the tank in question. If so, I would guess that 2 sizes larger than the possible panicee, stirs things up quite a bit, but 3 or more times larger could really be a problem. Imagine a size 2 vehicle (maybe a Bren carrier) running up against a size 6 tank. Perhaps having a size 5 tank nearby would nullify almost all factors considering, if there is a size factor, that none of the tanks are over size 6 (well maybe the Maus is a 7).

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Post #: 14
- 5/6/2003 6:55:44 AM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		I don't think it's the Gauss Sniper though. There are weakpoints on the Konigstiger, and given a crate of rockets and an M9 to shoot them with I bet even I could exploit them. (Though I'd like to think I'm maybe 40 experience or so. :D )

As I said, Charles_22, anything can panic. Apparently, though, only certain things (most notably units w/out dedicated anti-armor weapons) can panic and flee (ie, move) immediately.

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