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SP tank battles - 2/13/2001 11:34:00 AM

kar98

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Joined: 2/12/2001
From: ny
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I had a chance of playing this excellent game for few days and I have few questions to anyone who can help me. I wonder if having recon units serves a purpose, it seems to me that they are much weaker units and spot enemy just as good as regular inf units. I deploy snipers in 2 man teams, wait for crewmen from vehicles or inf units that have been attacked before and can't return fire. Sometimes they are able to pick off soldiers when number goes down 1 point from 8 to 7 or whatever. I am having a very hard time accepting the results of tank battles. I set up scenarios of same year, 1941, 42 and have tanks from same period go at it, let tanks face off each other and so far ge med tanks get slapped by med us tanks every time. I'm just talking about shot for shot, platoons of pz3's and pz 4's get killed by platoons of m4's and m3's. I even saw m8 grayhounds with their 37mm kill platoons of ge med tanks. I watch them fire time after time and miss while ronsons fire and score hits on my tanks, knocking them out. I'm setting up light and med tanks from both sides on hills, different distance and so on and the ratio is about 4 to 1. For every 4 knocked out ge tanks 1 us tank gets hit. Now these numbers are shocking to me and I wonder what ai drives those tanks. And having SS units with their +10 morale and experience doesnt help at all. I wonder where is that superior gun scope and range finder of ge tanks when they miss shot after shot. This gets me very upset, and I start playing tank sims such as Panzer Elite where I take matters into my own hands. I know it's just a 'dice roll' but so far but after a dozen games like this, not once I saw ge tanks win the battle. So I don't even bother going ahead to test the heavy tanks in '44 and '45. Besides this little problem I enjoy the game very much, sounds are maybe one day I'll get to reading the manual. I can't find a way to load units on apc's. When I select inf unit and want it to move to hex occupied by apc, apc becomes active. Is there a way to order a unit to move to the same hex as another unit without the other unit getting selected?

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- 2/13/2001 11:46:00 AM

Jonathan1945

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From: Stanford, CA, USA
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About the APC thing ... Try shift-clicking the vehicle/infantry into the hex, then hitting l, and selecting the loader/loadee. I actually find the opposite when playing tank battles -- my shermans are no match for the IV, and I'm forced to rely on the massive striking power of US artillery. To some extent it might be the computer ... I've noticed that when I use T-34's, a 50mm/L60 shot from a PzIII can take it out from halfway across the board, while the computer's T-34's are impervious

. Or it could be a perception thing...

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- 2/13/2001 1:22:00 PM

Warrior

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The formula used for armor hits, penetration, etc., are very complex and addressed previously in the Forum. Try running a search and you'll find lots of stuff on it. And if you want to give your tanks an advantage, you can do that by upping the "tank toughness" setting in the game preference menu. Good luck. (For what it's worth, about the only US tank I've found that will really stand against the German is the Sherman Jumbo, but I think they're later than '42.)

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- 2/13/2001 4:18:00 PM

Don

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Hi Kar98, When you set up this scenario, what kind of experience and morale numbers do the two sides have? Sounds like the US side has the higher numbers. Low numbers would cause the German tanks to continually miss and get taken out. Another trick is not to use op-fire, and let the gunners have longer to line up there targets. You'll see your hit percentages go up. On loading, Jonathan is right - place the troops in the same hex as the APC by hitting "shift". You have to be in the same hex to load, except in "Deploy" where you can load from one hex away. ------------------ Don

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- 2/13/2001 9:03:00 PM

Charles22

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In deploy, it doesn't matter how far away the loader and loadee are.

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- 2/13/2001 10:15:00 PM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
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From: Atlanta, GA 30068
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quote:

Originally posted by kar98: I wonder if having recon units serves a purpose, it seems to me that they are much weaker units and spot enemy just as good as regular inf units.

Recon units can spot units better than regular units. They don't suffer a lower chance to spot when they move, etc. The details are in the manual. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.

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- 2/13/2001 10:29:00 PM

kar98

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Thanks for help all. The settings for both sides are default, not knowing my way around the game yet I don't mess with any of it. So it's set to few xxx's and 100% like it was when installed. I turned off opfire timer and now that red link to a unit doesn't appear anymore, I got tired clicking on units, confirming all the time. My units fire by themselves on moving targets. I found the ai will move light armored units since they will draw fire first, then it moves their tanks close w/o being shot at by my tanks. Now does the time really matter in lining up the shot? When enemy moves I've noticed opfire score hits on enemy units damaging them but when I order fire at the same units they miss. Saw a shell fly way off with 90% chance 6 hexes away so go figure. Is there a way that opfire is turned off completely, without my units fire on moving enemy? I like the 'Battle' random generator option. Can I get more points for equipment, I wish there would be an option that I could enter amount of points for both sides, say 4000 since on avg I usually get around 1500 points. I noticed my sentence in first post, I must've cut off a part. 'I enjoy the game very much, sounds are maybe one day I'll get to reading the manual" I meant to say that sounds are nice and those distant battle sounds give a nice feeling for the game. Then, since I like the game so far and want to play it first, one day I'll get to reading the manual. Yea, now Thats better before that sentence looked like I was few brain cells short as a result of the crack pipes.

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- 2/13/2001 11:22:00 PM

O de B

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In 42 the XXX rating should be better for Ge than for US but... try to set both morale and exp to the same number...70 -80. Maybe you'll have to disable country training. Also make sure your units are under control (command link ok), i think it can help. Or disable C&C. As for opfire in the past there was the option of setting the fire range to 0, that would prevent units from opening fire. Especially useful for AT guns not yet spotted. Now when a unit is fired upon the range is released so it can return fire. And i did not play with this setting since the new opfire control routine that i like a lot... What german tanks do you have ? I don't expect Pz III J/L/Ms to be a real match for Shermans... only Pz IV f2/gs should evenly hold the ground... Tigers of course are the ultimate weapon. [This message has been edited by O de B (edited February 13, 2001).]

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- 2/13/2001 11:41:00 PM

Arralen

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Originally posted by kar98: I turned off opfire timer and now that red link to a unit doesn't appear anymore, I got tired clicking on units, confirming all the time. What ?? OPfire is when the enemy side is on the move - if one of your units gets OPfire possiblity, the game shows which one and asks if you want to shoot or not ... you may press Y or N/Space here, or wait 'til the set time has run out. BUT keep in mind that OPfire is that - opportunity fire .. little aiming and such, and it's not necessarily the unit with the best to-hit-% that fires, but the unit that made the check for "fast drawing" . My units fire by themselves on moving targets. Exactly - opfire shots

I found the ai will move light armored units since they will draw fire first, then it moves their tanks close w/o being shot at by my tanks. Nope. the AI moves it's units by number, starting with A0 and going down the list to ZZ9 .. moves the first unit a hex, the second, the third etc. and repeats this cycle until all movement points are spend. Dumb? Yes ... That the light vehicles appear first is jsut the result of them having the most movement points / paying less on most terrains ... Now does the time really matter in lining up the shot? When enemy moves I've noticed opfire score hits on enemy units damaging them but when I order fire at the same units they miss. Saw a shell fly way off with 90% chance 6 hexes away so go figure. Is there a way that opfire is turned off completely, without my units fire on moving enemy? But you'll want you units to opfire at the enemy units - sometimes because they pop up real close, and the hitting-% is really good, so it would be better to suppress them with opfire emiditaly, before they start firing themselves, sometimes because fire causes them to loose movement points and slows them down ... . Just hitting the space-bar couldn't be sooo difficult .. and you can always set the delay to "0", at which point your units shouldn't opfire at all. And if it's your turn, go to the unit you want to fire with (left click) and hit the "T" key .. takes you to the targeting screen. There's the to-hit-%age displayed in the lower left. Cycle throught the targets with "T", and better shoot at targets "F" with high %age

You'll notice that with evey shot the chance is increasing (the actual amount depends on firing unit stats, target stats .. ah, whole lot of numbers

I like the 'Battle' random generator option. Can I get more points for equipment, I wish there would be an option that I could enter amount of points for both sides, say 4000 since on avg I usually get around 1500 points. Go to the preference menue, set the "battle points" value to whatever you wish ... Then, since I like the game so far and want to play it first, one day I'll get to reading the manual. You'll like it much better if you know what you're doing .. go and RTFM !!! Really. Arralen

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- 2/14/2001 1:42:00 AM

BA Evans

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Have you used the U.S. tanks against the AI-German tanks? You might be surprised. BA Evans

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- 2/14/2001 1:43:00 AM

timc

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I think accuracy is largely a function is largely a function of crew/leader experience, but I have also found that, all other things being equal, AI tanks are "better" than mine. I figure that's why my guys need me. After completing long campaigns as an American and a German, I started another as British and am relearning that inexperienced crews don't get many shots and don't hit much. They'll get better if I can keep them alive. General comments on tank-to-tank engagements. 1. As an Americn I never went head-to-head with any German tank. Rather, I set my tanks up on the backside of ridges, hills, forests, buildings, etc. where they could get flank/rear shots as the Germans went by. Then they moved to a new position. 2. As a German I did the same thing until I got Tigers and then could stand off on the top off a ridge and blow up Shermans and halftracks at will until they got too close(4-6 hexes, maybe) then it was time to back off to the next position. Then one day (in 1944, I think) one of my Tigers took a front turret hit and blew up. Then another one blew up. Then another. The British 17 pounder was opening them up like sardine cans. Back to hiding behind things. 3. When the Sherman Jumbos appeared I found that Tigers and Panthers basically couldn't penetrate the front. Flank and rear shots, artillery suppression and letting them run onto your infantry line works well. 4. As my crews got experienced and elite I generally relied primarily on oppotunity fire. There were a few battles (defense and delay) in which I never gave a direct fire order, but relied exclusively on opportunity fire until the AI broke. I turned off the opp fire message as soon as I figured out how, and let things happen. Sometimes, bad things happen, but c'est la guerre.

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- 2/14/2001 5:38:00 AM

kar98

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Battle points in prefs, excellent. Changed it to 4k. I saw a bunch of xxx in those settings does that mean that xxx is random number? air sections were xxx and I couldn't purchase any but ai still came down with some typhoons, I almost had a stroke seeing the plane approach, took out 3 tanks in one pass and I was thinking there won't be any air strikes since I couldn't get any. When I talk about those tank battles I set up. It means only exchanging fire, not toughness or 'taking it'. Shot for shot, when ge tanks duke it out with us tanks, us tanks just hit ge tanks more often, that's it. Now that they hit them, those tanks get turret damage, hull penetrations or knocked out by first shell. Yes the tiger would be the king of the hill that's why it can take few rounds and keep on roaring. I just noticed 'troop quality' in prefs and it's set to xxx. Now if that was a random number number for air sections, then I must've been getting lower number for tanks crews quality and thats why they can't hit jack. Looked around in misc section, there are bridge building troops, and horses, hehe wonderful, war game to the max! then it must be possible to take out a bridge that's on the map then? or is that painted on the scenery and people would deploy barge bridges if another way to cross the river is called for. Also there is ammo dump and supply trucks. half track Rocket arty has very low ammo, I didn't notice any 'supply' button as in the panzer/allied general series on those units, can they drive to the dump and rearm or what you get at the start is what you have? Fantastic scenarios are included with the game, now if only I knew of a way to select small size maps to play 'battle' on.

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- 2/14/2001 5:45:00 AM

Don

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Originally posted by timc: "1. As an Americn I never went head-to-head with any German tank. Rather, I set my tanks up on the backside of ridges, hills, forests, buildings, etc. where they could get flank/rear shots as the Germans went by. Then they moved to a new position." That's good tactics! "2. As a German I did the same thing until I got Tigers and then could stand off on the top off a ridge and blow up Shermans and halftracks at will until they got too close(4-6 hexes, maybe) then it was time to back off to the next position. Then one day (in 1944, I think) one of my Tigers took a front turret hit and blew up. Then another one blew up. Then another. The British 17 pounder was opening them up like sardine cans. Back to hiding behind things." You're learning - I did the same thing. The greatest asset of the Tiger is it's gun, not it's armor, and you need to set up "firing lanes" and move when necessary. Jumbo's are very tough, but they can be killed. You're tactics there sound pretty good! Charles - I never knew that vehicles could be loaded from any distance during deploy - I always line all my units up next to each other so I can keep track of what's going on. I know if I had my units spread around 10 hexes from each other I'd never know what was what!

------------------ Don

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- 2/14/2001 3:45:00 PM

Thornado

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"then it must be possible to take out a bridge that's on the map then? " Yepp, the engineertroops are quite good at it. I think you just attack the first bridgehex all over water (with the Z-key) and then, the bridge goes!

Quite nice feature, especially if you see a lot of German Tigers on the other side

------------------ Thornado - You'll never know what hit you -

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- 2/14/2001 6:00:00 PM

Arralen

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quote:

Originally posted by kar98: I saw a bunch of xxx in those settings does that mean that xxx is random number? air sections were xxx and I couldn't purchase any but ai still came down with some typhoons, I almost had a stroke seeing the plane approach, took out 3 tanks in one pass and I was thinking there won't be any air strikes since I couldn't get any. ... I just noticed 'troop quality' in prefs and it's set to xxx. Now if that was a random number number for air sections, then I must've been getting lower number for tanks crews quality and thats why they can't hit jack. ... Looked around in misc section, there are bridge building troops, and horses, hehe wonderful, war game to the max! then it must be possible to take out a bridge that's on the map then? or is that painted on the scenery and people would deploy barge bridges if another way to cross the river is called for. Also there is ammo dump and supply trucks. half track Rocket arty has very low ammo, I didn't notice any 'supply' button as in the panzer/allied general series on those units, can they drive to the dump and rearm or what you get at the start is what you have? Fantastic scenarios are included with the game, now if only I knew of a way to select small size maps to play 'battle' on.

Read The F****** Manual !!! To each if your questions the answer is in there !!! Arralen [This message has been edited by Arralen (edited February 14, 2001).]

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- 2/14/2001 8:35:00 PM

AmmoSgt

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Arralen .... you noticed i have said nothing .... Thank you for saying it all..Ammo

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- 2/14/2001 8:49:00 PM

krull

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HWHEHE he could be like me ya know . I read manual and alot times I am still lost

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- 2/14/2001 9:22:00 PM

Charles22

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Don: What I like to do is buy troops as I like to deploy them (A0 gets deployed first, etc.). My first group is always a tank company, followed by flak/ATGs, followed by engineers, followed by infantry, followed by maybe an HT section, followed by an MG section, followed by between 2-4 tank platoons, followed by general hodepodge. As it turns out, when I get to the flaks/ATGs, I place them in the spots that look good. For those pieces which I'm unsatisfied would be a good place for them, in other words they have to advance beyond four or five hexes, I will place them out in the open so I don't forget to load them, and I don't have to bother with moving them next to transport. In support, there most of my transport is used. I generally don't load infantry except for maybe one platoon for meeting engagements. So, when I'm deploying and the first truck/mule/HT comes along I will go to the place where I put all the flaks/ATGs by screen movement, and then figure out which gun I want loaded (while the first transport is still selected), then hit the load key and then move the transport to the spot it will advance from and this is repeated and works quite fine. It saves a smidgen of time. OTOH, I would guess that you probably buy units intrinsic with transport, so your approach may work better there. Actually.... to use the load as I do, I am showing the enemy that I have something to be feared, as my transports carry Star Trek transporters, who knows if my troops might not have a phaser tucked away somewhere?!

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- 2/15/2001 2:23:00 AM

Warrior

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quote:

Originally posted by Arralen: [B] Read The F****** Manual !!! To each if your questions the answer is in there !!! B]

Chill out, Arralen. You were a newbie once, too.

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- 2/15/2001 2:47:00 AM

kar98

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quote:

Originally posted by Arralen: [B] Read The F****** Manual !!! To each if your questions the answer is in there !!! Arralen[B]

If you find yourself at the end of the day with nothing to contribute to a topic, refrain yourself from posting replies.

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- 2/15/2001 2:51:00 AM

AmmoSgt

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No I think Arralen is right... this time i am all for critisim of the game where it has faults from folks who understand how the game works ... and i am all for newbies asking questions that some folks might find obvious and answer those questions with tact and courtesy ... But complaining about how the game handles basic combat issues based upon what you saw in the Battle of the Bulge Movie and citing totally fictious statistics and then going on to display a very amazing non-understanding of how the game works or having any Idea of the level of serious historical knowledge both on the boards here, and that went into game design and combat modeling ..I think, perhaps, that that may actually deserve a suggestion to read the game manual complete with an explitive or two ....

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- 2/15/2001 6:06:00 AM

Don

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Arralen is right, but we can be nice about it too. Charles22: I've always wondered about how everyone else handles deployment, as how I do it just evolved from being confused with dealing with alot of troops. So I line them all up next to each other in neat rows and ponder where to put them. When I play a WB campaign where he gives me 2 hexes to deploy I'm in trouble with my system!

I would love to hear how others handle deployment.

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- 2/15/2001 7:22:00 AM

Charles22

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Don: I bet you play locally too. I go through the units, for the most part, through alphabetic order about half of the time and then reverse alphabetic the other half. I would prefer to go through all my tank units first, but unfortunately there's no hot key to scroll through units of a particular type and it makes it difficult to choose a core if I were to pick all my tanks first in order to achieve the same thing. I think I do pretty much go through all the tank units first, it's just that I have to leapfrog all the units inbetween to get to the next one. Somehow it seems quicker than just hitting the all forces menu and clicking leapfrogging that way. Perhaps I'll put that into more consideration. I do play locally in really tough situations, but since tanks are so much stronger and I do almost all my kills with them, it makes it a lot easier to fight alphabetically. Most battles I only use them for fighting when the battle's pretty much won, or when the tanks are running low on HE. It seems that the only time I use them proper, largely due to how I deploy them, that it's only when half of my tanks have been smashed. I used to play quite the opposite, where I used to place the infantry along the front, with the tanks far behind, relatively on hills. This allowed the infantry to reduce a disadvantage I might have to enemy tanks, before they engaged my tanks, but unfortunately it tore up the infantry too bad, as the tanks AT fire didn't help enough from such a range. If I'd ever play a campaign long enough to get to where the panzerfausts are being used, I think that would change my deployment somewhat more along the lines of how I used to do it. When your tanks have to face three or four less IS2s when the tanks exchange fire, that definitely helps.

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Post #: 23

- 2/15/2001 8:36:00 AM

Kilroy

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AS my post will show I have not been a active participant in the forum. The reason being not only have I read the manuel, but any question or frustration that came about by playing SPWaW was answered by search or by viewing the days latest topics. I find the support and freindliness rewarding. When I turn my machine on I look foward to what you guys and gals have to say and offer. Have never been involved in a more rewarding gaming experience. P.S. Jess the SCHOOLHOUSE was awesome, thanx

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Post #: 24

- 2/16/2001 12:00:00 PM

kar98

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OOh this is good, is this gem for me? I actually was laughing after reading this. Thank you for this comic relief.

quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt: No I think Arralen is right... this time i am all for critisim of the game where it has faults from folks who understand how the game works ... and i am all for newbies asking questions that some folks might find obvious and answer those questions with tact and courtesy ... But complaining about how the game handles basic combat issues based upon what you saw in the Battle of the Bulge Movie

Now what are you talking about, are we looking at the same post? Where am I complaining about the way this game handles combat issues? Does my experience comes from watching movies? heh.
quote:

and citing totally fictious statistics and then going on to display a very amazing non-understanding of how the game works
Show me a sentence with any statistics I post in which do I display my non-understanding of the working of this game? Is it The 4-1 kill ratio in my games? Once again, that's just what I noticed, does that make you conclude my expertise of the war from freaking watching hollywood movies and mtv??
quote:

or having any Idea of the level of serious historical knowledge both on the boards here, and that went into game design and combat modeling ..
Show me, where do I display such ignorance.

quote:

I think, perhaps, that that may actually deserve a suggestion to read the game manual complete with an explitive or two ....

The audacity! Now if you have read my posts I do reveal that I might have my level of expertise. I posted that I play Panzer Elite which is the best ww2 armor sim to date which includes all data that a fine sim needs to include. That I'm a newbie in this game upsets you? Should I post my resume with all the info in which games I have my experience and where did I get my degree as a wargamer? You wanna give me a quiz? Should I post penetration data for Pzgr. 40/43 at 2000 meters to get your approval? I played warbirds, now Aces HIgh and when it comes out ww2online, will that earn me your passing grade? or are these games just hollywood reflections of real war which you seem to be an expert in and are fit for retards like me who take their war knowledge from movies? I understand anal retentive jerkoffs like you (wait I'm gonna get to explitives soon) and you misguided barking. I wish to help you. Therefore I will explain my understanding of the game. My first post stated "I am having a very hard time accepting the results of tank battles" as you keep reading you find out that from what in many scenarios I played I noticed ge tanks having a hard time hitting enemy tanks. That's just what I saw and after further investigation I found that troop quality was set to 30 for ge and 70 for us which explains the difference in perfomance. Did I say anything such as 'this game blows'? even with my lacking of the knowledge of this game I assumed that perhaps it was just a 'dice roll'. Then I state that I can't find a way to load inf on apc's, which is the holding shift, as I was instructed to do and is actually explained on page 13 of the manual. The rest of my posts are general impressions and discoveries about the game, it's just a newbie rant how much fun this game is. Reading manual would come eventually after having spent some time just screwing around the game, having fun. But you couldn't take it, [stuff deleted, lets at least keep the falmae wars PG-13...] This game is fantastic, level of data and research done is the reason it's such a fantastic game which came behind Combat MIssion in some game of the year thing which I also play. I do thank all who have been helpful and performance of this bad apple doesn't reflect negatively of the community. Now when I will finish the manual (I'm on page 44 which explains changes in campaign and editor) I would love to try some battles against human opponents. S! [This message has been edited by kar98 (edited February 16, 2001).] [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited February 18, 2001).]

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Post #: 25

- 2/16/2001 12:20:00 PM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

I'm Allied in the 40 and 43 leagues look me up when you decide to try PBEM

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(in reply to kar98)

Post #: 26

- 2/16/2001 12:21:00 PM

USMCGrunt

Posts: 174
Joined: 1/17/2001
From: Yarmouth, ME, US
Status: offline

If Kar98's last post dosen't constitute a personal attack, I don't know what does. While the replies to Kar did seem a bit harsh, his reply went WELL beyond the bounds of good taste. If this isn't a case for admin intervention, I don't know what is. ------------------ USMCGrunt -When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.

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USMCGrunt Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?" But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll! -Rudyard Kipling-

(in reply to kar98)

Post #: 27

- 2/16/2001 12:26:00 PM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

best way to settle this is PBEM thats what i say personal challenge is offered If Kar wants to put his degree in wargaming to the test LOL

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(in reply to kar98)

Post #: 28

- 2/16/2001 2:23:00 PM

chanman

Posts: 84
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Westminster, Colorado, U.S.A.
Status: offline

Just as an aside, I wanted to read the manual on my lunch hour, but the link labeled: SPWaW v4.1 Manual Download Here Updated 09/25/2000 doesn't seem to work. I can print and read the manual here at home since it extracted from the .exe. Just a comment. No flames please.

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"As God is my witness, I thought that turkeys could fly"

(in reply to kar98)

Post #: 29