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For Review and Comment - 7/27/2013 8:47:48 PM

carlkay58

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I have been playing around in my mind with some rules to give incentives to the Soviets to defend forward and have some large battles. Now that the current morale state gives the Soviets some ability to counter attack and defend better than previously, it should be possible to do.

Rules:

1) German panzer corps locked into Army Group boundaries until Turn 5.
2) No Lvov pocket before Soviet Southern Front is activated.
3) Soviets MUST attempt to ZOC every frontline Axis unit each turn. Frontline is defined as a unit which has no or single Axis-controlled hex between them and the east side of Map.
4) There is a running total of "Blitz Points". If the Axis reach 15 before 1942 they achieve an Automatic Victory.

Blitz Points are awarded at the end of the Axis Turn. Blitz penalties are awarded at the end of the Soviet Turn.

Blitz Point penalties consist of the Axis being awarded 1 BP for every 10 (rounded down) Axis frontline units that are not in a Soviet ZOC at the end of the Soviet Turn. An additional penalty is that if a city that has awarded Blitz Points to the Axis is either isolated or recaptured at the end of a Soviet Turn, that city will no longer award blitz points to the Axis at any time.

Blitz Point Awards are based on the following city control by the Axis. Some of the turns are marked with a '?' and are awarded without regards to a turn. Where there are two turns indicated, they correspond to the two BP awards.

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Post #: 1

RE: For Review and Comment - 7/27/2013 9:05:05 PM

heliodorus04

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At first glance, my only comment is that this plays to one of my main complaints of the game:
It's really all about what the Soviet side does, and Germany is a bit-player in a grand army creator for the Soviets. To the extent that requirements demand Soviets stay in contact with Germans, I like that (delaying the perfect army creation). To the extent that you put limits on what Germany does (zone restrictions) I don't like that.

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RE: For Review and Comment - 7/27/2013 9:05:36 PM

carlkay58

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Joined: 7/25/2010
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And now a few comments on the above.

Penalizing the Soviets for NOT putting Axis front line units into a ZOC just helps keep them honest and inspire maintaining the contact. I do realize that there will be some times that the Soviet player will not be able to ZOC everyone - this mechanism allows for that - to a point.

Allowing the Soviets to isolate or recapture a city and remove it from the Blitz Point awards list does two major things. The first is to keep the Axis player honest and not do 'Blitz Point Raids' (much like the factory raids of old). It also gives great incentive to the Soviet player to do serious counter attacks and should (hopefully) create some larger battles in the game. It also prevents the Soviets from just never moving up any reserves to help keep up the ZOCs in future turns without risking the game.

The Blitz Point Awards table is going to be controversial. I pored over quite a few of the published AARs, tested some stuff out vs the AI on normal for the first two turns, and went with gut feelings to an extent. I am more than willing to accept suggestions and modifications to the table. One of the major unknowns is just how to balance the south since almost all of the AARs include the Lvov pocket. Some of this is just 'wild ass guessing' so feel free. My major point was to make the Axis have to stretch to reach some of the locations in time to get the points. A good example are the three cities that award on Turn 1 - Minsk, Riga, and Lvov. It is possible for each of these cities to fall on the first turn (I have managed to do it) but the Axis player will have to work at them to do it. Riga is the easiest by far on the list but is not 100% certain. What those capturing those cities do is to up the pressure on the Soviet player right from the first turn.

The 15 point target is also an arbitrary point total that may have to be adjusted.

Random weather would be left up to the players to decide. A mud turn in the first four or five turns would practically negate the Axis the ability to get some of the city awards but after that it should be okay.

I did look at every Soviet city with a population of 10 or more and then whittled down the list. Some of the cities were in the list of 'if they got this far they have already won', some (such as Vilnius) were just too automatic to be included, some were just not possible to add due to too much randomness on different subjects. The cities that were labeled with awards that happen whenever the Axis capture it are pretty self explanatory. Kiev was added to that category because of the historic refusal by Stalin to allow a withdrawal that ended in the Kiev Pocket. Some are simply because I think they should be important (such as Tula) but I have no idea when the Axis may be able to capture them.

< Message edited by carlkay58 -- 7/27/2013 9:12:37 PM >

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RE: For Review and Comment - 7/27/2013 9:10:29 PM

carlkay58

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helio - the restrictions on the Axis player are only the Lvov Pocket and limiting the Panzer Groups for the first five turns. The Panzer limit is probably up in the air actually, although there are few reasons to send additional units south on turn 1 if you are not doing an extended Lvov pocket - it is mostly in place to avoid the deep pockets that have become the norm for MT and Sapper play that wipes out the entire Southwestern Front without, technically, forming a Lvov Pocket.

The Lvov Pocket and its latest twists are the major point raised by Soviet players as to why they MUST run in the south. Removing these options from the Axis tool box offsets the requirements for the Soviets to keep the front line Axis units in ZOCs (which will increase their casualty rates) and allowing the Axis to gain Blitz Points and possibly winning the game in that manner.

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RE: For Review and Comment - 7/27/2013 9:28:03 PM

Gabriel B.

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If the 11th panzer activates the romanian front by cutting the 3 rails into Tarnopol, without closing the pocket, the soviets would still be hard pressed to get the troops out .

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RE: For Review and Comment - 7/27/2013 10:42:52 PM

timmyab

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From: Bristol, UK
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I would be strongly against rule one.
I don't understand rule two.
The BP idea is close to what's needed.I think that the city points should be on a sliding scale to reflect the importance of speed of capture.So for instance Belgorod could be something like turn 11 = 3, 14 = 2 and 17 =1.Kirovograd - 3 = 3, 5 = 2, 7 = 1 or whatever.Obviously the whole list would need recalibrating.
Points could also be awarded for successful Soviet assaults.

edit.Oh,another thing.Please include Tallinn in the city list.This city was important for AGN and it would add some strategic interest in the North.At the moment it can be completely ignored.

< Message edited by timmyab -- 7/27/2013 10:47:36 PM >

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RE: For Review and Comment - 7/27/2013 11:43:12 PM

Aurelian

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Rule number 3 leads to arguments. "I did *attempt* to." "No you didn't."

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RE: For Review and Comment - 7/28/2013 12:59:15 AM

carlkay58

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The major purpose of Rule 1 is to stop the extended Lvov envelopment that takes out all of the Southwestern Front on Turn 1. It is technically not a Lvov pocket but is only possible by using some of the panzers from AGC.

Rule 3 is enforced by the award of 1 Blitz Point for every 10 (rounded down) of Axis frontline units not in ZOC. At this point, the Soviet either did or did not ZOC the Axis units in question. If the Soviet fails at ZOCing 1 to 9 Axis units there are no penalties but it could be expensive if the Soviets turned and ran.

Timmyab - I only included cities with population of 10 or more. While there are several cities that are excluded from the list that are still important, their strategic importance should make their defense self evident.

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RE: For Review and Comment - 7/28/2013 1:39:57 AM

OddBall2

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Carl
Interesting Idea. Took a few days off and it jump out at me on some of the recent AAR's that the Soviets Just abandon Kiev and Smolensk without a fight. Just turning over Millions of its citizens to the Nazi. It would never have happened that way. Something should be done. What about just reducing the Germans Movement points in the south on the first turn or two?

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RE: For Review and Comment - 7/28/2013 1:55:48 AM

Aurelian

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If you're going to penalize them for failing to achieve #3, even if they attempt it, (note the rule says *attempt*, not achieve), then you're going to get arguments.

Especially as the other three Fronts get vaporized as well.

And since you wish to hobble the Soviets with #3 the entire game, how about the as yet non existent #4. Where a German soldier stands he will not retreat, All hexes where there is an Axis ZOC at the start of a turn must be under a ZOC at the end of their turn.

And Rule 1 is, (IMHO), unworkable, as there are no AG boundrys once across the border.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 7/28/2013 1:56:18 AM >

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RE: For Review and Comment - 7/28/2013 2:47:32 AM

carlkay58

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OddBall2 - that would be a scenario mod and most players don't play those.

Aurelian - all of these rules are over by the end of 1941. I have thought about swinging the reverse on the Axis about the ZOCs starting at some point in the game, but have not figured out how to do so as of yet.

Rule 1 definitely will require work. As stated above, the first two rules are an attempt to stop the Lvov or Extended Lvov opening from happening. I am open to suggestions for replacement rules that would accomplish the stated goal.

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RE: For Review and Comment - 7/28/2013 7:53:05 AM

Aurelian

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Rule 3 also runs into that brick wall called the Fog of War setting.

Which brings up the word *attempt* again.

The Sov player will not have the units, let alone the movement points, to attempt, (that word again.), moving into all those unfriendly hexes in the hope of finding a unit to sit next to.

And as it doesn't matter if it is attempted or not, but only if it succeeds, there really is no incentive to even bother. Because you could/will be throwing away units for no gain. Especially with the over generous logistics. (And IIRC, it's been said that the Sovs don't get their historical rate of re enforcements.)

And if one can't reach them through no fault of their own, like no units with enough MPs, or nothing but routed units close enough, why should said player be penalized?

Especially as said rule says that he MUST *attempt*. Not succeed, just attempt.

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RE: For Review and Comment - 7/28/2013 8:24:46 AM

janh

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Actually this sounds quite good. This would be the sort of rules required for WitE2 to get an additional level besides the purely military aspects governing when and where to fight into the game. With the morale now finally fixed this really should bring Soviet players to fight hard and relentless, and it should finally also be fun for them and not just a badly lost cause anymore. Hopefully some people will offer us AARs with these rules!

I agree that point 3 is a tough one to follow and might be cause for irritation. Perhaps it would get simpler if this only applied to German Panzer and Motorized, though those are for the first 4-7 turns anyway the only ones sticking their head out this far. With the new morale rule allowing the Soviets some teeth this exposing a mile too far may soon also make place to more caution once plays settle to the new standard.

Perhaps one could award blitz points for retreating German units instead?

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RE: For Review and Comment - 7/28/2013 9:37:24 AM

timmyab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
Timmyab - I only included cities with population of 10 or more. While there are several cities that are excluded from the list that are still important, their strategic importance should make their defense self evident.

Unfortunately Tallinn is not strategically important in the game as it was in real life because the Soviet navy is not modeled.It needs to be made important artificially.The same goes for Sevastopol in the Crimea.

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Post #: 14