"Iron Hand" scenario - driving me nuts

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"Iron Hand" scenario - driving me nuts - 10/19/2013 1:59:35 AM

erichswafford

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Has anyone come up with a good winning strategy for this one? AFAIK, you absolutely can't go up against the enemy CAP, because you'll lose quite a few a/c that way, which kills your score.

I've tried nailing the most dangerous radars with the SS-26 btn (worked pretty well), and used my long-range Kh-55's and Kh-22's to nail most of the stuff around Baku, but I can't figure out how to get to those SA-4 (mobile) launchers with my AS-17 ARM equipped SU-34's. They tend to get intercepted long before they can unload their ARMs. I did try rerouting them to the west, then south - before coming up from the South at NOE altitude. That almost worked!

As my Su-34's popped up over the mountains, their ESM lit up and found the SA-4's, but then I had like a dozen MiG-29's vector in and they were engaged defensive before I lost a couple and had to call the whole thing off.

Anyway - if anyone has some tips, I'd sure appreciate them!

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Post #: 1

RE: "Iron Hand" scenario - driving me nuts - 10/19/2013 11:54:42 AM

dcpollay

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From: Upstate New York USA
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You're the commander, Kondor - You figure it out!

To me, that should be the fun of the game. You can't just go on the Internet and look up the cheat code. You get lots of play time on a scenario like this, and then when you figure it out, you can sit back and watch other people struggle, knowing you are the superior commander.

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Post #: 2

RE: "Iron Hand" scenario - driving me nuts - 10/19/2013 12:40:28 PM

Tomcat84

Posts: 1952
Joined: 7/10/2013
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Haven't played this one yet. Guess I'll have to give it a go next week :)

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Post #: 3

RE: "Iron Hand" scenario - driving me nuts - 10/19/2013 4:01:45 PM

erichswafford

Posts: 602
Joined: 5/14/2008
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Yeah, you're right. Will post an AAR if I ever figure it out!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Colonel Mustard

You're the commander, Kondor - You figure it out!

To me, that should be the fun of the game. You can't just go on the Internet and look up the cheat code. You get lots of play time on a scenario like this, and then when you figure it out, you can sit back and watch other people struggle, knowing you are the superior commander.

_____________________________

My Command Review at SimHQ: http://www.simhq.com/daily-news/command-modern-airnaval-operations-1-01-review.html

(in reply to dcpollay)

Post #: 4

RE: "Iron Hand" scenario - driving me nuts - 10/19/2013 9:29:52 PM

CV32

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From: The Rock, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kondor999
As my Su-34's popped up over the mountains, their ESM lit up and found the SA-4's, but then I had like a dozen MiG-29's vector in and they were engaged defensive before I lost a couple and had to call the whole thing off.
Anyway - if anyone has some tips, I'd sure appreciate them!

I am popping up the Su-24s and Su-34s over those mountains as well, from the southwest.

But before this, I smacked the airfields with ballistic and cruise missiles, and used my MiG-29s and Su-27s to draw off enemy fighters. Su-24MR and Tu-22MR types helped to narrow down uncertainty zones for the mobile threats.

Thank goodness the Azeris didn't site their SAMs on their own mountaintops.

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Post #: 5

RE: "Iron Hand" scenario - driving me nuts - 10/19/2013 10:22:07 PM

Russian Heel

Posts: 231
Joined: 10/8/2013
From: Metro Station Vasileostrovskaya
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The main problem I'm having is the commander's intent to not destroy the Azeri Air Force. If not for that I'd have hit the airbases with the SSMs and cruise missiles then fighter swept with my Su-27s and MiG-29s, or set up air-ambushes over the Caspian Sea, they launch intercepts. You can orbit fighters over Dagestan, and put in an ELINT track over the Caspian, then intercept with your fighters when they are out of their SAM cover. I guess that is within the spirit of the intent in the briefing.

Best I have done so far is 'Average' 300. With 1 Day 17 hours left here is my loss/expenditures:

quote:

SIDE: Armenia
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
2x SA-4a Ganef [3M8M1]
2x SA-4b Ganef [3M8M2]

SIDE: Azerbaijan
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
3x Radar (Spoon Rest D [P-18])
1x Radar (Back Net [P-80])
29x 23mm ZU-23-2
49x SA-5c Gammon Single Rail
8x Building (Square Pair [5N62])
4x Building (Odd Pair HF [PRV-13])
4x Building (Tall King C [P-14])
2x SA-4a Ganef [2P24] TEL
4x SA-4b Ganef [2P24] TEL
2x Vehicle (Pat Hand [1S32])
1x Radar (Bar Lock A [P-37])
6x Radar (Tin Shield B [5N59S/36D6])
3x Radar (Tall King A [P-14])
50x SA-2f Guideline Mod 1 Single Rail
9x Vehicle (Spoon Rest C [P-12])
74x SA-7a Grail [9K32 Strela-2] MANPADS
8x Vehicle (Fan Song F [RSNA-75M])
17x Vehicle (Low Blow [SNR-125])
66x SA-3c Goa Quad Rail
16x Vehicle (Flat Face B [P-19])
3x MiG-29 Fulcrum C

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
64x AA-10 Alamo A [R-27R, MR SARH]
79x SA-3c Goa [5V27D, V-601PD]
35x AA-11 Archer [R-73]
32x SA-20b Gargoyle [48N6E2]
1x 30mm Gsh-30-1 Burst [30 rnds]
9x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
3x Generic Flare Salvo [3x Cartridges, Single Spectral]

SIDE: Russia
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
8x SS-26 Stone [9M723, Penetrator]
8x SS-26 Stone RV [Penetrator]
48x AS-15 Kent C [Kh-555]
32x Kh-101
8x AS-4 Kitchen B Mod 3 [Kh-22NA INS+TERCOM]
8x AA-10 Alamo A [R-27R, MR SARH]
3x AA-11 Archer [R-73]
1x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
1x Generic Flare Salvo [3x Cartridges, Single Spectral]

I have not been very aggressive because I am trying to follow the commander's intent, its just really hard to do since the entire Azerbijanski Air Force is airborne the second you fly over the border. In fact, except for NKAO, I have not flown over any Azeri territory. All I have left is the mobile launchers, I thought about crossing the mountains from the NKAO, but I know their AF will meet me. It is a frustrating and challenging scenario to 'win' I think real world-wise though I made a statement. I've destroyed their fixed air defense network, destroyed 3 of their fighters, demonstrated the Russian Federation has the political will to support Armenia, and done so without the loss of any men or equipment. It has only cost Gazprom a few billion Rubles at that.

(in reply to CV32)

Post #: 6

RE: "Iron Hand" scenario - driving me nuts - 10/21/2013 10:18:41 PM

erichswafford

Posts: 602
Joined: 5/14/2008
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Outstanding work there! I agree that you've done an excellent job and fulfilled the "spirit" of the exercise. CMANO is one of those games where I make up my own victory conditions based on the tasking at hand. Seen in this light, you've scored a Decisive in my book.

Like you said, the toughest thing is how to draw off their CAP without getting into furballs which lead to 1:1 trades of aircraft (and therefore violate your orders rather badly).

I found that you also need to draw off the CAP just so you don't lose an inordinate amount of those Kh-555's, which are quite vulnerable to the MiG-29's SARH weapons especially. I guess I didn't realize the MiG-29A had that much of a look-down/shoot-down capability vs very low flying cruise missiles. I thought that's what the MiG-31 was for!

I think I'm going to do a little research on that. It just doesn't seem quite "right". I can definitely see the S-300's handling cruise missiles with ease, but not the R-27's with the MiG-29A's rather basic radar set.

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Post #: 7

RE: "Iron Hand" scenario - driving me nuts - 10/22/2013 4:23:25 AM

Fishbed

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From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
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Even though Flanker 1 isn't exactly a very faithful source of information, I do remember that Kh-55 were among the few missiles that the player could reliably engage even then with the sub-standard way the fighters' avionics we modeled. The IRST systems will catch its signature pretty easily. But then, head-on and without datalink technology, it seems a little far reached to expect MiG-29As to put up organized and systematic interceptions against that sort of foes...

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Post #: 8

RE: "Iron Hand" scenario - driving me nuts - 10/22/2013 5:29:26 PM

erichswafford

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Joined: 5/14/2008
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Yes, it just doesn't feel quite right. I'll look more closely into the MiG-29A's avionics, but certainly in something like DCS World, you'd be hard-pressed to find anything like a cruise missile on the deck without a *lot* of GCI help. Even then, it would be damn hard to lock it up on radar. The IRST doesn't help if you're relying primarily on the R-27R SARH (which is what I see them using to take out the Kh-555's). You'd have to maintain radar lock on a small, very low-flying target to take the SARH shot.

Plus, if the MiG-29A can really knock down cruise missiles this well, what's the point of having the (much more expensive) MiG-31?

Update: Maybe the MiG is doing so well because it's taking them out over water? That's where the vast majority of my Kh-555's came in (over the water into the Baku area). I think I'll try having them come over land to see if there's a difference. If so, I'll be damn impressed with the weapons/sensor modeling, as the game will have really taught me a lesson re: cruise missile employment.

< Message edited by kondor999 -- 10/22/2013 5:34:56 PM >

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Post #: 9

RE: "Iron Hand" scenario - driving me nuts - 10/22/2013 6:10:40 PM

Dimitris

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Joined: 7/31/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kondor999
Yes, it just doesn't feel quite right. I'll look more closely into the MiG-29A's avionics, but certainly in something like DCS World, you'd be hard-pressed to find anything like a cruise missile on the deck without a *lot* of GCI help. Even then, it would be damn hard to lock it up on radar. The IRST doesn't help if you're relying primarily on the R-27R SARH (which is what I see them using to take out the Kh-555's). You'd have to maintain radar lock on a small, very low-flying target to take the SARH shot.

Plus, if the MiG-29A can really knock down cruise missiles this well, what's the point of having the (much more expensive) MiG-31?

Much longer detection & engagement range plus 4-on-4 capability. Also the MiG-31 has much better speed, altitude & endurance. Two-man crew is also a big plus for long patrols.

What's the range at which the MiG-29 detects the cruise missiles? If it's short enough it's reasonable. If it detects them close to max range I'll have to nudge rag to have a look at it.

quote:

Update: Maybe the MiG is doing so well because it's taking them out over water? That's where the vast majority of my Kh-555's came in (over the water into the Baku area). I think I'll try having them come over land to see if there's a difference.

There's definitely a difference in the clutter modifiers between water and land. (Overland terrain slope also plays a crucial role; much easier to detect anything over a flat valley than close/over a mountain ridge).

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 10/22/2013 6:14:27 PM >

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