Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? during WWII?

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Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? during... - 12/21/2013 8:17:19 PM

aaatoysandmore

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I mean they are just hard to find and only a handful of old games exist really. Pacific General (one of my favorites) QQP's abstract WW2 land battles with their Perfect General game. HPS's couple of Squad Battle games and that's about it. I guess you could say Combat Leader has some elements of land battles against the japanese during WW2 but that engine is sooooo dated an the ai, I can hardly play it anymore and it's starting to give me issues with these new OS's.

When's somebody gonna make something new??? A COMMAND OPS game in the Pacific would be soooo awesome. I just guess nobody has the talent to make them today. Seems Germany and Russia get all the glory and I'm pretty sick of those nations to play against or as.

Back to Gettysburg I guess and Norbs great games. Too bad he can't crossover into the Pacific too.

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/21/2013 8:41:21 PM

SLAAKMAN

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(You need to search more).

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
� Winston Churchill

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/21/2013 10:08:21 PM

Missouri_Rebel

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Not really a command ops type game but Matrix is working on this release;

http://www.slitherine.com/games/order_of_battle_pacific

And then there is this game. It's been out for a while. More operational and I'm not sure how it plays;

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/381/screenshots/Storm.over.the.Pacific

I assumed you were talking about computer games. Just not a lot of them covering the pacific. Too bad ASL was never computerized way back when it was sold off in that form. By now we'd be seeing Code of Bushido and Gung Ho!

< Message edited by Missouri_Rebel -- 12/21/2013 11:14:13 PM >

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/21/2013 10:17:10 PM

Missouri_Rebel

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John Tiller's Campaign Series is another dated title, but it seems like wodin had some links to some massive mod that updated it quite a bit.

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/21/2013 10:20:36 PM

Hertston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

John Tiller's Campaign Series is another dated title, but it seems like wodin had some links to some massive mod that updated it quite a bit.

Rising Sun is the best of the package, though. Good game that hasn't dated any more than a lot of stuff here.

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/21/2013 11:20:40 PM

rodney727

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Sadly not one of these is computer based.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

(You need to search more).

http://boardgamegeek.com/geeksearch.php?action=search&objecttype=boardgame&q=guadalcanal&B1=Go

http://boardgamegeek.com/geeksearch.php?action=search&objecttype=boardgame&q=saipan&B1=Go

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/93110/ats-peleliu-white-beach-one

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/18591/doro-nawa-the-struggle-for-singapore

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/32173/malaya-41-the-fall-of-singapore

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/31369/singapore-1941-fall-of-the-fortress

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/38206/illusionary-fortress

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/690/singapore

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/37875/iwo-jima-rage-against-the-marines

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/4254/iwo-jima-valor-of-arms-19-feb-25-march-1945

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/28199/the-sands-of-iwo-jima

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/22153/nishi-ridge-the-battle-of-iwo-jima-1945

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/22/2013 2:10:09 AM

gradenko2k

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The lack of land-based WWII Pacific games, indeed WWII Pacific games in general probably has a lot to do with the context and scale of the conflict: Unless you're fighting in China or maybe Burma/India, you can't really half-ass the non-land-based parts of a scenario.

You'd have to either model the naval/air war as well, or run it as though it was a foregone conclusion - say, the Guadalcanal landings always happen historically and you just have to deal with driving out the Japanese as the Marines without having to worry about keeping the supply lanes open from Noumea.

Even the temporal scale of the conflict produces challenges in design; lots can happen within a day of air operations, and lots can happen with a week of naval operations, but land operations might take weeks or months to play out simply due to the distances and terrain and infrastructure involved - again you would run into problems with three different modes of combat all tugging at the game in different ways. You need to simulate all three, but that's almost guaranteed to make at least one of them suffer in fidelity unless heavily abstracted.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel
And then there is this game. It's been out for a while. More operational and I'm not sure how it plays;

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/381/screenshots/Storm.over.the.Pacific

Storm Over the Pacific is hot garbage (really, all of Wasteland Interactive's catalogue is) that you should avoid at all costs.

Battlefront's Strategic Command does operational-level-WW2-in-the-Pacific better (aside from, of course, War in the Pacific)

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/22/2013 4:33:43 AM

aaatoysandmore

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Yeah order of�battle of the Pacific looks like just what I am looking for....when's it coming out?

I also have Storm over the Pacific but wasn't too impressed with it. Just seems like something is missing.

< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 12/22/2013 5:36:11 AM >

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/22/2013 4:34:47 AM

aaatoysandmore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

John Tiller's Campaign Series is another dated title, but it seems like wodin had some links to some massive mod that updated it quite a bit.

Yeah I left that one off but I have Rising Sun. I just want something more modern and hopefully a better ai.

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/22/2013 5:40:08 AM

Missouri_Rebel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Yeah order of�battle of the Pacific looks like just what I am looking for....when's it coming out?

That I don't know. I'd think not for a while because the first screens were just released. If I had to guess I'd say late spring. Just a guess of course.

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/23/2013 2:17:21 AM

aaatoysandmore

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Battlefront needs to do a CMx2 series on the Pacific cause that's what I'm really looking for is something more tactical individual soldier on those islands. Imagine playin John Wayne on the Sands of Iowa Jima!

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/23/2013 1:44:32 PM

DerTroof

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

I assumed you were talking about computer games. Just not a lot of them covering the pacific. Too bad ASL was never computerized way back when it was sold off in that form. By now we'd be seeing Code of Bushido and Gung Ho!

Multiman recently released a COB/GH combo, "Rising Sun":

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/135895/rising-sun-asl-module-13

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/23/2013 3:29:21 PM

wings7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Battlefront needs to do a CMx2 series on the Pacific cause that's what I'm really looking for is something more tactical individual soldier on those islands. Imagine playin John Wayne on the Sands�of Iowa Jima!

Ross, there has been talk of the Pacific Theater for CMx2 for quite some time. I hope they create it, it would be an instant purchase for me! The Combat Mission series is simply second to none!

Patrick

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/23/2013 4:00:30 PM

berto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Battlefront needs to do a CMx2 series on the Pacific cause that's what I'm really looking for is something more tactical individual soldier on those islands. Imagine playin John Wayne on the Sands�of Iowa Jima!

Ross, there has been talk of the Pacific Theater for CMx2 for quite some time. I hope they create it, it would be an instant purchase for me! The Combat Mission series is simply second to none!

Patrick

+1

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/23/2013 9:02:03 PM

wodin

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Most likely the slow progress through rough terrain...same reason you get few WW1 tactical games.

How I'd do it is as a platoon scale individual man type of mechanic..or go more like The Sims but be Coy Commander of a Coy with all individual soldiers with individual stats..where you manage supplies...keep moral up..training..send officers on courses..tactics..defensive sites..offensive tactics.carry out Battalion Orders (who would under the hood be following division orders who would be following Army etc etc).would work well for a Pacific game or WW1. Make it so the player can get attached to certain soldiers or squads..and be praying they get through the next offensive or survive the sudden night Banzai attack.

< Message edited by wodin -- 12/23/2013 10:02:35 PM >

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/23/2013 10:40:58 PM

Lieste

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WW1 is much maligned. There were plenty of operations of interest, and with large scale movements, albeit frequently interrupted by siege warfare.
Even the trench warfare saw significant movements of troops and fluid attack/counter-attack, just on a smaller scale than the full depths of the echeloned positions, fast enough to avoid the holes being plugged*. The interest would be in a more intimate depiction, bringing a brigade through several days of operations, rather than attempting to model the entire Western Front (or Somme) etc. Usually first day, first echelon objectives were reached, but holding them was often too much, and the depleted first echelon often found communications lost and organic strength too depleted to press their secondary objectives, and the progress slowed on subsequent days to negligible levels with steadily building losses.

I'm semi-seriously contemplating German East Africa or the campaigns in the Turkish Middle East*. This latter is a campaign that includes the operation with the most rapid sustained advance in military history, (at least it was still faster than Desert Storm ~ though I'm not sure if the 2003 operation was faster - I'm a wee bit out of date and it didn't 'grab' me in the same way).
*CMD Ops, once the current tranche of testing and patching are complete I might look into mapping and a simple Estab ~ be good to get some Allah-en-nebi bringing water and liberation to the deserts...

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/23/2013 10:50:50 PM

wodin

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OH the Western front as a wargame can be done..at any scale.. by thinking outside the box and use a brand new type of wargame system.

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/23/2013 10:55:32 PM

berto

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http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3277203

quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

Games I'd like to see:

WWII Pacific, emphasizing operational land combat, with abstracted but suitably detailed air & naval combat on the side, covering, in detail: Burma 1942; Burma 1944-45; Burma 1942-1945; Malaysia 1942; Singapore 1942; Luzon 1942; Bataan 1942; Luzon 1945; Leyte 1944; Liberation of the Philippines 1944-1945; China War 1937-1945; Papua/New Guinea 1942-1945; Guadalcanal 1942-43; New Georgia 1943; Bougainville 1943; Solomons 1942-43; hypothetical invasion of Australia 1942-43 (kind of like Operation Sea Lion); the larger land battles (not just Marine invasions) on Saipan, Guam etc. 1944; Liberation of the DEI 1945; Iwo Jima 1945 (at a lower level of detail, but not tactical); Okinawa 1945; hypothetical invasions of Japan 1945; and so on. Not more air/naval games with abstracted land combat on the side; rather vice versa. (TOAW is just inadequate to the task, and its several scenarios covering just a few of these conflicts are old, outdated, unavailable, and/or were never really good to begin with.)

A rich vein of gaming topics, never seriously mined.

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/23/2013 11:01:27 PM

geozero

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War in the Pacific has some land combat at a very high strategic/op level. As for lack of other stand alone games it is most likely due to AI issues... the Pacific was a lot of naval and naval air battles, and (other than China theater) all about amphibious warfare. One reason why Combined Arms (if ever released) would be good is that it comes with several Pacific battles right out of the box... many I designed (Saipan, Iwo Jima, etc). It would lend itself very good to future battles.

TOAW 3 had some pacific battles as well. The price is good on it... and there is chatter that there is a TOAW 4 in the works but I wouldn't hold my breath.

But we will likely get 6-10 more titles in 2014 on the Eastern Front, because, hey... it's just fun to play the same thing over and over.

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/23/2013 11:04:15 PM

Twotribes

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Decision games has a small game called Operation Olympic the hypothetical invasion of Japan.

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/23/2013 11:28:06 PM

wodin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero

But we will likely get 6-10 more titles in 2014 on the Eastern Front, because, hey... it's just fun to play the same thing over and over.

There aren't loads and loads of east front wargames and even fewer ones that are good..compared to West front wargames anyway. SO to say it's all East front is not really true. Three of my all time fav wargames haven't got an East front WW2 version..Combat Mission x2, Command Ops and Flashpoint Campaigns. My other recent wargame I really enjoyed was Decisive Campaigns Case Blue but lets not forget we have a West front version of that game.

I'd say the West front has been done well more than the East front and it's only recently the Eats front is having it's day in the sun.

One reason why it's popular is because of the range of equipment use dover the years, two forces both at their peak during the campaign, loads of battles to recreate of huge offensives to small combat situations. Really has everything a wargamer would want except the western allies equipment.

Also just because there maybe a fair few East front games doesn't mean there are alot worth playing! Some of the best wargame series made in recent years don't have an east front version yet for instance. Once those series have hit the East front and the East front then has a selection of games worthy of the campaign then I'll be happy. SO roll on Combat Mission East front, Command Ops East front and a Flashpoint Campaigns WW2 East front;)

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/24/2013 12:31:04 AM

aaatoysandmore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Battlefront needs to do a CMx2 series on the Pacific cause that's what I'm really looking for is something more tactical individual soldier on those islands. Imagine playin John Wayne on the Sands�of Iowa Jima!

Ross, there has been talk of the Pacific Theater for CMx2 for quite some time. I hope they create it, it would be an instant purchase for me! The Combat Mission series is simply second to none!

Patrick

Yeah although I don't really like the new engine because of online play only for rts clickfesters and player made scenarios for quick battles I probably would buy that one because I enjoy land based pacific battles so much. Just wish there were more of them. Wish Matrixgames could make one in the image of Panzer Command: Osfront engine instead. I'd buy that one then.

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/24/2013 3:12:18 AM

Perturabo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Battlefront needs to do a CMx2 series on the Pacific cause that's what I'm really looking for is something more tactical individual soldier on those islands. Imagine playin John Wayne on the Sands�of Iowa Jima!

Ross, there has been talk of the Pacific Theater for CMx2 for quite some time. I hope they create it, it would be an instant purchase for me! The Combat Mission series is simply second to none!

Patrick

Yeah although I don't really like the new engine because of online play only for rts clickfesters and player made scenarios for quick battles I probably would buy that one because I enjoy land based pacific battles so much. Just wish there were more of them. Wish Matrixgames could make one in the image of Panzer Command: Osfront engine instead. I'd buy that one then.

Real time simulation games have nothing to do with RTS. RTS don't simulate anything and are a "real time" version of turn-based degenerate "strategy" games that happen on vaguely strategic scale (commanding large units, economy, especially production is important, time scale allows building stuff) but with non-simulationist mechanics.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 12/24/2013 4:12:31 AM >

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/24/2013 12:16:44 PM

aaatoysandmore

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What's the abbrv for Real Time Simulations? Looks to me like it would be RTS.

Also rts games are not in real time so I wonder why they call them real time simulations? The only game I ever played that seemed in real time was Norbsoft's Gettysburg and the Mad Minute's games he made. Perhaps Command Ops is more real time too. But, every other rts I ever played was far from 'real time'. Even Paradox real time simulation games go faster than real time. But, I do like Crusader Kings II.

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/24/2013 12:28:58 PM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? during WWII?

I guess that because land battles involved few troops (they were indeed very bloody) and they did not last a lot.

This theater of war is asking more for tactical games a la Steel Panther.

Think about WitP AE: the land aspect is sort of abstracted. The naval, air and logistical side of things is what 100% matters.

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 12/24/2013 1:29:05 PM >

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/24/2013 4:28:00 PM

DanSez

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John Tiller's Campaign Series looks to be getting an GUI face-lift and some heavy back code unification efforts are in works. That would make the Rising Sun something to think about picking up if you don't already have it.

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/24/2013 4:43:19 PM

Missouri_Rebel

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What I don't understand about programming is this;

Why is it so hard to separate old code from old graphics? Programming are the black arts to me but I never understood why it was so difficult to upgrade the graphics with very modern ones while using the game code as a foundation. Are they integrated that much? They must be. Otherwise a solid game like JTCS could get a total facelift with something other than 16bit(is that right?) graphics.

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/24/2013 5:04:35 PM

berto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

What I don't understand about programming is this;

Why is it so hard to separate old code from old graphics? Programming are the black arts to me but I never understood why it was so difficult to upgrade the graphics with very modern ones while using the game code as a foundation. Are they integrated that much? They must be. Otherwise a solid game like JTCS could get a total facelift with something other than 16bit(is that right?) graphics.

Old programmer? Proficient in C, but not yet in C++, the language that JTCS is written in? And new to programming graphics in the Windows environment (but an old hand at programming in the Unix/Linux environment)?

So far, I've been busy fixing the many, many foundational issues in the JTCS code. Graphics improvements -- and A/I improvements! -- will come in due time. But I must learn to walk before I can run. And upgrade the race course first. Patience.

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/25/2013 2:35:53 AM

catwhoorg

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I think the main issue with the land battles that actually were fought in the Pacific, is that they were generally very one sided.

Initially no-one was ready for the Japanese, so they brought overwhelming odds.

Then the situation reversed.

there are very few battles that you feel could go either way.

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RE: Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? du... - 12/25/2013 2:51:49 AM

aaatoysandmore

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After seeing "Letters from Iowa Jima" I long for land based Pacific wargames on a tactical scale.

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Why so few games of land battles of the Pacific? during WWII?