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Multiple states of war - 2/21/2014 6:31:08 PM   
celebrindal


Posts: 314
Joined: 2/26/2005
Status: offline 		As a curiosity I have a question about the multiple states of war.

Both Ger and IT declared war on Greece.

IT is only at war with France and not the CW.

Greece is aligned with CW.

As the convoys are fleeing past the italian fleet from an overrun I get to intercept them.

The next impulse the CW player takes a naval and runs the remaining ones past me to the Red sea and it didn't give me the option to intercept??

Correct or did the program miss something?

< Message edited by celebrindal -- 2/21/2014 7:31:46 PM >

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Post #: 1
RE: Multiple states of war - 2/21/2014 8:42:38 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		11.4.6 Interception
How to intercept
You succeed if you roll the modified search number, or less, of the highest section that contains one of your committed units. If your roll is higher than that modified search number, your interception attempt fails.

Interception attempt fails
If the interception attempt fails, the moving force continues as if nothing had happened.

< Message edited by Extraneous -- 2/21/2014 9:43:08 PM >

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(in reply to celebrindal)
Post #: 2
RE: Multiple states of war - 2/22/2014 1:56:41 AM   
celebrindal


Posts: 314
Joined: 2/26/2005
Status: offline 		No, this was over multiple impulses.

On my impulse I got to roll for intercepting the overrun naval units.

On his impulse he moved the remaining boats out and I did NOT get to intercept.. not that I failed, I didn't even get to roll, had lots of unactivated boats in various boxes..

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Post #: 3
RE: Multiple states of war - 2/22/2014 8:26:15 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Sounds correct to me. On the surprise impulse the convoys are Greek, but after that they are CW and Italy isn't at war with the CW.

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(in reply to celebrindal)
Post #: 4
RE: Multiple states of war - 2/22/2014 10:55:25 AM   
celebrindal


Posts: 314
Joined: 2/26/2005
Status: offline 		Ok, that's what I was kinda wondering..

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Order is nothing more than Chaos on a bad day.

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Post #: 5
RE: Multiple states of war - 2/22/2014 11:41:15 AM   
celebrindal


Posts: 314
Joined: 2/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celebrindal

Ok, that's what I was kinda wondering..


Now that I think more about it, wouldn't that be incorrect? If that was the case after Russia would DoW Rumania wouldn't then all the units revert to German? or is it just naval units that exhibit this behaviour?


_____________________________

Order is nothing more than Chaos on a bad day.

Dave

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Post #: 6
RE: Multiple states of war - 2/22/2014 12:31:52 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Sounds correct to me. On the surprise impulse the convoys are Greek, but after that they are CW and Italy isn't at war with the CW.


Are you absolutely sure about this? I think the Greek convoys should stay Greek until Greece is conquered. I don't see anything in RAW which suggest otherwise...

< Message edited by Centuur -- 2/22/2014 1:32:27 PM >

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RE: Multiple states of war - 2/22/2014 2:57:32 PM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

Posts: 585
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline 		Re:Celebrindal Pretty sure it's just convoy points that are this way, unless you're playing with CoiF

Re:Centaur. Again, pretty sure it's just convoy points, if the Girg Avenoff (or whatever that cruiser is called) tried to leave port, I bet the Italians could have gone for it, it's just that pre-coif, minor countries don't have their own convoy points, there are just major power convoy points.


The part I'm a bit confused by is being able to intercept them on the surprise impulse. Were there any Greek real ships with them when they were overrun?

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 8
RE: Multiple states of war - 2/22/2014 5:02:27 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		It actually played the way we always played it over the board - never played with COiF... So, yes I thought it was right.

Without CoIF it only ever made any sense to consider convoy points as non-CW (or whichever major they aligned to) on the initial surprise impulse when you knew those convoys that set-up in the minor (and its possessions) were indeed units of that minor.

We may need to inquire of Steve if this is WAD.

Edit: Also I agree with Ur_etc that the CA would stay Greek until Greece is conquered.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 2/22/2014 6:03:57 PM >

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RE: Multiple states of war - 2/22/2014 5:45:26 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It actually played the way we always played it over the board - never played with COiF... So, yes I thought it was right.

Without CoIF it only ever made any sense to consider convoy points as non-CW (or whichever major they aligned to) on the initial surprise impulse when you knew those convoys that set-up in the minor (and its possessions) were indeed units of that minor.

We may need to inquire of Steve if this is WAD.

Edit: Also I agree with Ur_etc that the CA would stay Greek until Greece is conquered.


Well, considering that you can attack f.e. French convoy points in a combined CW/French convoy chain with Italy and not the CW ones when Italy is not at war with the CW, I think the same should be done in case of the Greek convoy points. Italy is at war with Greece and should therefore be allowed to intercept the Greek convoy points at all times. It is up to the CW to see them moved out of harms way and the CW can have the Greek cruiser escorting them...

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RE: Multiple states of war - 2/22/2014 7:15:28 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I thought it was decided to treat the CP as Greek until they were conquered. Note that there is a change in CP counter colour when they change nationality from a minor power to a MP.

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Post #: 11
RE: Multiple states of war - 2/22/2014 9:38:14 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		Just to show what the exceptions are.

quote:

11.4.6 Interception
How to intercept
To find out if the interception succeeds, roll a die and compare it to the search number in the highest section containing units you committed to the interception. Some weather will modify the search numbers, as will the presence of carrier planes and NAVs (see 8.2.4 Naval search numbers and SiF option 27 CV search ~ 11.5.5 Searching)


9.9 Multiple states of war
You can only attempt to intercept naval units you are at war with. If several major powers’ or minor country’s units attempt to intercept a task force containing units from the other side, you don’t all have to be at war with every moving unit to intercept the task force - however the naval units not at war with any intercepting major power or minor country are ignored in the subsequent naval combat.

Example: A combat includes a Commonwealth and a US naval unit against a Japanese and a German unit. The US is at war with Japan and the Commonwealth is at war with Germany. You fight this as one combat even though US units can’t fight Germans and Japanese units can’t fight Commonwealth. The Japanese unit is sunk. In the next round, the US unit isn’t included because it can’t fight German units.

During port strikes and naval combats, a unit can’t fight against units from the other side unless it is at war with at least one of them (being at war with an enemy unit the naval unit is transporting is not enough). However, you resolve, as one combat, a combat that includes units that are not at war with each other, so long as each unit included is at war with at least 1 enemy unit in the combat.

Exceptions to the restriction on neutral naval units fighting are US units escorting Allied convoys (see 13.3.2 US entry options, entry options 11 US east coast escorts, 29 North Atlantic escorts, 38 Arm merchantmen) and all US units after unrestricted naval warfare is chosen (entry option 50 Unrestricted naval warfare).



Had Greece been conquered when this occurred?

Because if Greece is completely conquered it is at peace with Italy and...

quote:

Complete conquest
All naval units of a minor country remain under the control of their controlling major power. Treat them as units of that major power (British in the case of the Commonwealth).



During the Declaration of war step when Italy DoW's Greece then the Allies either align Greece or it surrenders.

If the Allies align Greece then all Greek units are at war with Italy. Greek units are not units of the aligning major power they are units controlled by the aligning major power.

So whether it is the surprise impulse or any following impulse Greek units are controlled by their aligning major power.


This is a case of Multiple states of war because Italy is at war with Greece but not the CW.

So as long as Greek ships are in a sea zone with Italian naval or NAV units then they could be intercepted (see example from the RAW above).



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Post #: 12
RE: Multiple states of war - 3/3/2014 3:38:38 PM   
celebrindal


Posts: 314
Joined: 2/26/2005
Status: offline 		No Greece hasn't been conq yet, I think there might have been a destroyer with the cp's that ran past me but i'd have to go look. It was on the surprise impulse during the overrun that I was allowed to intercept. The next impulse as part of the CW naval the convoys moved out and I was not allowed to intercept, even though I had ships to do so.

_____________________________

Order is nothing more than Chaos on a bad day.

Dave

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 13
RE: Multiple states of war - 3/3/2014 5:33:08 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Do you have a save for this that I can look at?

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Post #: 14
RE: Multiple states of war - 3/3/2014 8:05:56 PM   
celebrindal


Posts: 314
Joined: 2/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Do you have a save for this that I can look at?


Sure let me dig through the save files..

_____________________________

Order is nothing more than Chaos on a bad day.

Dave

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 15
RE: Multiple states of war - 3/3/2014 8:44:08 PM   
Dabrion


Posts: 733
Joined: 11/5/2013
From: Northpole
Status: offline 		Minor CP were introduced with CoiF, in order to counter the surprise denial in hexes where the CP are placed. Since they are units of the controling major power, you could fly missions and basically intervene as normal. This oddity was not FAQed, since it was addressed with the minor power CP from CoiF.

If you don't play without CoiF there are no minor country CP and CP setup when you align a minor country are the the controlling major powers CP (with the consequences mentioned). So whatever Paul is playing is, although reasonable.., a house rule. Why would you not play with CoiF, or at least with the minor power CP?

OTOH the colours of the counters are those of the minor country in MWiF, which could mean that the CP are the minor countries units. This should be clarified and added to the next addendum of the PM.

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“WiF is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.”
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(in reply to celebrindal)
Post #: 16
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