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Hexes or (No) Hexes

 
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Hexes or (No) Hexes - 2/21/2003 2:12:20 AM   
Jim1954

 

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From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Quite a spirited discussion in that other thread. I guess I'm one of those older guys that cut his teeth on hexes, Richtofen's War, to be specific. Given the choice to turn them off or on , I leave them on. Comfort level I guess. What's the problem as long as there's a choice?

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- 2/21/2003 3:43:01 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		Hmm 4 yes votes, well maybe just three, mine is kinda assumed heheh.

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Post #: 2
- 2/21/2003 3:52:36 AM   
Catgh_MatrixForum


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From: Durango, CO
Status: offline 		I would like to see the poll to be expanded beyond yes and no to include "at times".

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Post #: 3
- 2/21/2003 3:54:51 AM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
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Status: offline 		Only the moderators can edit polls, but I, as poll originator, am ok with it, if they want to do so.

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Jim1954
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Post #: 4
- 2/21/2003 4:59:00 AM   
Fred98


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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		What is the point?

If you like hexes then you are not eligible to answer the question: Any ideas to make use of computing power to make wargames better?

Whether the hex side is on or off shows a total misunderstanding of the issue.

Whether the hex side is on or off has no effect on the movement capabilities of a unit.

Bit if a hex could be boken down to 1,000 points then a unit could move to any of those 1,000 points.

And in some games a tanks main gun might have a range of 6 hexes. In a flexible game a gun could have a range of 6,000 points. But the oppositions tank has a range of 5,500 points. And a third tank has a range of 4,500 points.

Unfortunately there is no such thing as 5.5 or 4.5 hexes. But those who love hexes don't care. But some of us want better games.

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Post #: 5
- 2/21/2003 5:38:35 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		Sadly though, most of us only want to play the games.

Most of us are not wealthy enough to make hopelessly complex games only a few people want.

And most of us are not programers who would even know how to make those incredibly complex games.

That in the end is your delima.

I don't have a problem with a better simulation, I am just not capable of making it for you.

Hands up out there, how many independently wealthy programers in the house?

Anyone?

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Post #: 6
- 2/21/2003 9:12:39 AM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
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From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Joe98 you and I are not talking about the same thing. This was a poll to ask what your opinion was on whether you preferred hexagonal grids in your wargaming environment. You obviously do not and that is your right.

Please do not presume to tell me I don't understand the issue when I am the one asking the question and posting the poll.

I didn't ask the question "Any ideas to make use of computing power to make wargames better", seems like you did.

If you are dissatisfied with the current state of movement/combat resolution, the hex, come up with a viable alternative.

If you want better games then do something about it.

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- 2/21/2003 9:31:49 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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Status: offline 		didnt give us very good options....at a real time tactical level hexes kinda suck....at an operational level I find them to be a good design choice.


In naval games I dont think they have any place...because you can sail the same speed in about any kind of water....in land battles they give a good sense of how terrain affects movement

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Post #: 8
- 2/21/2003 9:47:00 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		That is actually a good point Fallschirmjager. I supose flight games would be about the same consideration.

I wonder if somewhere the secret lies in what makes those games operate.

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Post #: 9
- 2/21/2003 12:25:32 PM   
Ardle

 

Posts: 93
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From: Hiroshima, Japan
Status: offline 		OK, let's talk about this from the aesthetical viewpoint. Personally speaking, I detest hex overlays in games and always keep them turned off. They're just plain redundant in a computer game, and for me take away from the immersive graphical representation of the battlefield. Why on earth would anyone want these ugly lines all over their monitor when the movement paths of units is obvious enough without them? Fine if the old conservatives like the hex overlays to comfort them, but let's use the fulll potential of the PC to provide us with a deeper and more immersive experience (and no, I'm not necessarilly talking RTS or 3D here) rather than simply trying to mimic boradgames.

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Post #: 10
- 2/21/2003 1:31:05 PM   
Fred98


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Status: offline 		Jim1954,

In your poll you asked: Do you like hexes yes or no? And you pointed to Veldors thread. Veldor is discussing games that use a measurement other than hexes. So your question seems to be complementing Veldor’s thread: “Death to hexes”.

Then in your text you wrote: “I turn the hex sides on or off” which has nothing to do whether the hexes exist or not. If there are no hexes the hex sides cannot be turned on or off. It is not relevant to Veldor’s thread. These are 2 separate issues.

Quote
“If you are dissatisfied with the current state of movement/combat resolution, the hex, come up with a viable alternative. If you want better games then do something about it.”

But I am doing something about it.

I have made posts made here and on other forums. The titles have been “Getting rid of hexes” “How to make use of computers to make better wargames” and others.

But instead of responses like “here is an idea Joe” the responses are “we cannot improve wargaming because ASL and A3R, both more than 10 years old, are the nirvana of wargaming”

The lack of positive response is totally overwhelming.

And I have a good reason for posting on the Matix forums. Matrix makes computer wargames. Whooo!

Matrix uses computing power to make better games. So far, to me, Uncommon Valour is the pinnacle of wargaming. Yet it is not perfect.

As Valdor pointed out in his thread and I pointed out in the UV form many weeks ago, a ship has a movement radius in the form of a circle. But if the circle goes through a hex the ship must end its turn one hex before that hex. If there were no hexes the ship could sail to the edge of the circle in one turn. A very simple concept.

And to quote Les, “Sadly though, most of us only want to play the games. Most of us are not wealthy enough to make hopelessly complex games only a few people want.”

I suppose by “hopelessly complex” you mean like ASL, 3R, World At War, Steel Panthers, Close Combat. All very complex and all very successful.

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Post #: 11
- 2/21/2003 6:44:25 PM   
Jim1954

 

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From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Joe98 There are games where I like them and games where I am perfectly happy if they are absent. I remember one Jet combat game, although not the name of it, that used the hex points as well as the hex sides for movement regulation. It got way too tedious to keep track of and consequently , it sits on a shelf now.

Point being, the hex is NOT the end all of movement and combat resolution, but not too many really good solutions have been marketed, at least at a tactical level, where most of my interest resides. Unless you are talking flight or naval sims I haven't seen too many other options.

As far as pointing to that other thread, that is what prompted me to post this poll, and in hindsight I should have put a sometimes choice in also. I was not endorsing or condemning anybodies opinion on what makes a good looking visual experience or how best to regulate the things that hexes tend to be used for now.

If somebody comes up with a better alternative that hits the market and I like it, I'll definately buy it.

I am open to progress in these areas.

We need it, and sharp minds to make it happen. Otherwise we might all be discussing Risk with no other gaming alternatives and no hope for any other options.

:)

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- 2/21/2003 8:53:42 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

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Status: offline 		Actually Joe by hopelessly complex, I meant designing games that require a massive increase in data processing.

I was not referring to ASL, 3R, World At War, Steel Panthers, Close Combat really.

To coin a notion, a hex with 1000s of points. If a hex is called a woods hex, it applies to the hex only once. That is not at all complex. Many things can happen as a result of a woods hex, that might end up complex (ASL being a good illustration).

But to take a woods hex, and impose a 1000 seperate data points to it, that is complex. Even if each data point in a seemingly woods zone, is handled identically, the computer must now not just move the unit into the hex, but must resolve the unit going from point 0001 to point 0002 to point 0003 get the idea.
Now if on a map a unit can traverse what to a hex map game is ten hexes, that could mean calculating a position among 10k seperate locations.

Now granted computers out there are getting fairly fast, but are they ready for that?
I mean we are talking hmmm 100 units, each in motion, each calculating movements, concerning 1000s of points.

And no one is going to give up their pointless animations (as another poster in another thread seems to indicate). So you will be doing more than simple movements, you will be rendering animations, just because they look pretty. All of which are expected to be running constantly "just because".

I don't have a P4 system and I highly doubt I ever will. Some day I might be forced into an upgrade, it will likely be several leaps forward by then.
But it sounds like all this down with hexes hysteria is going to need a computer several generations from now.
And for what?, because hexes are such an eyesore?

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Post #: 13
- 2/22/2003 9:41:38 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		“because hexes are such an eyesore?”

No of course not. Hex sides can be turned on and off as you see fit. In Uncommon Valour, turn off the hex sides and see some terrific artwork in the map.

Its not hexes as such. Rather, I would like to see hexes much smaller. How about 1,000 th their current size?

And it’s not about graphics. It’s about a new game system.

In Uncommon Valour a typical destroyer might be 120 yards long. And the hexes are 30 miles wide. From the center of a hex to the edge it is 15 miles distance.

If the movement radius circle of the ship, passes through the center of a hex, the ship must end its movement at the last hex. A ship 150 yards long cannot travel the final 15 miles to the edge of its movement circle.

As for computing power, its getting cheaper all the time. Did you know that the P4 has certain features so that game companies can make better games? And did you know that game designers have chosen to ignore these features, partly because it costs more to produce such a game.

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Post #: 14
- 2/22/2003 1:45:39 PM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		Mixed feelings, yes and no. I think turning them on especially when designing maps and scenarios is critical, but I prefer them off during gameplay because it gives more of a true to life feel. Just my 2 cents worth.:rolleyes:

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Post #: 15
- 2/23/2003 4:42:51 AM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
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From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		Most people are confused by the sheer visiability of hexes as such. Alot of games use hexes or even (worse) squares to determing "terrain areas" for the game engine, even if they´re not present to the eye. Keep that in mind. Therefore a poll about hexes "yes or no" is quite invalid ;)

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- 2/24/2003 2:42:16 AM   
Veldor


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From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fallschirmjager
[B]didnt give us very good options....at a real time tactical level hexes kinda suck....at an operational level I find them to be a good design choice.


In naval games I dont think they have any place...because you can sail the same speed in about any kind of water....in land battles they give a good sense of how terrain affects movement [/B][/QUOTE]

Well put. It's impossible to answer this question without first visualizing a certain type of game in your mind.

It works great for some, awful for others. There is no one right system that works across the board.

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Post #: 17
- 2/24/2003 2:55:17 AM   
Veldor


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From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marc Schwanebeck
[B]or even (worse) squares to determing "terrain areas" for the game engine [/B][/QUOTE]

You mean like Matrix's Flashpoint Germany? Was that done to preserve the feel and play of the original game or was it an actual new choice made?

[QUOTE][B] even if they´re not present to the eye.[/B][/QUOTE]

If the density of hexes/squares were larger and measurements a player used were not made in hexes or squares...displaying the "grid" would serve no purpose to the player. It would purely be a game device like any other storage matrix(no pun intended) array within the game.

[QUOTE][B]Therefore a poll about hexes "yes or no" is quite invalid ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

The "feel" of the game would thus be one of no hexes/squares.. whether or not they are used behind the scenes is at least to me irrelevant from a player's perspective.

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Post #: 18
- 2/24/2003 3:53:42 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
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Status: offline 		Ever wonder if silently there are people out there saying that squares are also dumb in the era of computers?

And as "point" has to have a shape (probably a square shape), that would mean that it would not be inconceivable to say down with forcing a unit to be anywhere.

After all, what is reality anyways. Are any of you really there at all?

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Post #: 19
- 2/24/2003 4:43:24 AM   
CCB


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Status: offline 		When I first got Panzer General (one) the first thing I did was turn off the hex grid. The map looked a lot better with it off.

When I first got Steel Panthers (one) the first thing I did was turn off the hex grid. Then I just as quickly, if not faster!, turned it right back on to guage the gun ranges - specifically when it came time to set the firing range on my units. I didn't want a well hidden unit to fire at an opposing unit halfway across the map and give it self away. I prefer the hold their fire 'until they see the whites of their eyes.' ;)

Hex grids really detract from the aesthetic quality of the map, but it sure comes in handy when setting ranges, etc.

I voted yes in this poll, but I also play with the hex grid turned off at times.

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Post #: 20
- 2/25/2003 3:53:13 AM   
CCB


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Status: offline 		then again, sometimes hexes are such a pain :p

[IMG]http://www.atstoysoldiers.axxs.net/images/JIMABattleBG.jpg[/IMG]

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Post #: 21
- 2/25/2003 5:30:17 AM   
Marc von Martial


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From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
[B]If the density of hexes/squares were larger and measurements a player used were not made in hexes or squares...displaying the "grid" would serve no purpose to the player. It would purely be a game device like any other storage matrix(no pun intended) array within the game.

The "feel" of the game would thus be one of no hexes/squares.. whether or not they are used behind the scenes is at least to me irrelevant from a player's perspective. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yep, I totally agree on the density point. What also answers your point regarding FPG ;)

However the initial post to this poll didn´t point out the densitiy / behind the scenes argument. That´s why I replied mentioning it.

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Post #: 22
- 2/26/2003 12:03:29 AM   
rbrunsman


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From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Does anybody ever wonder why the Civilization series was based on squares? I loved those games and watched the sun rise a couple times because I kept saying, "Just one more turn." But, I couldn't help but think if hexes had been used it would have been an even better game.

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Post #: 23
- 2/26/2003 12:29:10 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
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Status: offline 		It all comes down to what the game designer wanted it seems.

Squares work, hexes work, apparently crappy AI's are even considered acceptable.

Cheesy graphics are considered important by some. Pointless animations, and 3d images are also considered mandatory by some.

Me I prefer plain chocolate over white if that helps any:) .

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
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Post #: 24
- 3/3/2003 3:35:57 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
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Status: offline 		clean up post, just ridding a certain name here move along nothing to see.

Everyone should add a bump or something and do there part to keep our Forums looking free of annoying spam hehe.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
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Post #: 25
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