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Carriers battles (again) - 2/9/2003 11:49:33 PM   
afenelon

 

Posts: 498
Joined: 3/25/2001
From: Belo Horizonte
Status: offline
A few months ago, I placed a topic on carriers battles.
I fell the combat resolution system of v2.20 is somewhat
biased against the IJN. That time, others players managed
to convince me that the disastrous defeat I suffered with
a superior IJN force wasnīt due to a trouble with the
combat resolution system. Now, I achieved a impressing
victory as USN, in a CV battle, that makes me wonder again
if the system isnīt really biased. Unlike the former situation,
the USN now had an advantage in cariers (4CVīs vs 3CVīs
plus one CVL) and planes (340 vs 230). So, a victory was
expected, but the extent of that victory surprised me.
Here are the combat reports (with some comments)


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/08/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy

Sub attack near Gili Gili at 17,42

Japanese Ships
PC Ch 16, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS S-39


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Noumea at 52,67

Japanese Ships
SS I-29

Allied Ships
SC 646


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 31,49

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9
SBD Dauntless x 29
TBD Devastator x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 25 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 7 damaged
TBD Devastator x 3 destroyed
TBD Devastator x 8 damaged

LTJG P.Koizumi of BI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 5

Japanese Ships
CV Soryu, Bomb hits 1
CV Shokaku
CV Zuikaku, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CVL Shoho

-First round. My human opponent decided to keep only 40%
-of his Zeroes on CAP. Most SBDīs were shot down by CAP,
-but only one F4F was lost despite its numerical inferiority.
-Of 11 surving TBDīs, there was one torpedo hit (9%).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 31,49

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 23

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 18
SBD Dauntless x 52
TBD Devastator x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 9 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 6 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 19 damaged
TBD Devastator x 12 damaged

LTJG E.Matsuyama of EIII-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 3

LT K. Notomi of EIII-1 Daitai bails out and is CAPTURED

Japanese Ships
CA Aoba, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 2
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CV Soryu, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CV Zuikaku, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Yugure

-Results were not unexpected, but again Zeros did badly
-against F4Fīs. Against, a few TBDīs managed to get a
-torpedo hit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 31,49

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 10

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 14
SBD Dauntless x 54
TBD Devastator x 28

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 7 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 2 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 3 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 10 damaged

WO T. Tanimizu of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 5

Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Zuikaku, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Soryu, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA Aoba, on fire, heavy damage

-Quite expected results, with heir CAP gone, the IJN could
-not resist the 3rd wave.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 29,51

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 46
D3A Val x 32
B5N Kate x 53

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 15
F4F-4 Wildcat x 67

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 35 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
D3A Val x 16 destroyed
D3A Val x 15 damaged
B5N Kate x 28 destroyed
B5N Kate x 21 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 3 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9 damaged

ENS J. Flatley of VF-42 is credited with kill number 4

LCDR U.Bando of BI-1 Daitai bails out and is CAPTURED

Allied Ships
CV Hornet
CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 2
CV Yorktown, Torpedo hits 1
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 1
CA Portland
CV Enterprise

-Very large US CAP, but very powerful escort too. The F4Fīs
-shot down 35 Zeros with only 12 losses (seems quite un
-historical to me). 50 bombers survived the fighters, but
-only 4 hits were achieved (with almost no damage). Kates
-did worse than TBDīs? I think we should expect at least
-8-10 hits on my carriers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 29,51

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 36
D3A Val x 21

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 9
F4F-4 Wildcat x 33

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 18 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged
D3A Val x 13 destroyed
D3A Val x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 8 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 5 damaged
F4F-4 Wildcat x 8 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3 damaged

ENS J. Flatley of VF-42 is credited with kill number 6

LCDR C. Fenton of VF-42 is KILLED

-Itīs strange that surviving Vals didnīt attack.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 28,52

Japanese aircraft
B5N Kate x 3

no losses

Allied Ships
AP Hunter Liggett, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Port Moresby , at 10,40

Japanese aircraft
B5N Kate x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate x 1 damaged


Allied ground losses:
Men lost 14

Runway hits 8

Attacking Level Bombers:
18 x B5N Kate at 5000 feet
3 x B5N Kate at 5000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Noumea at 52,67

Japanese Ships
SS I-4

Allied Ships
AP George F. Elliot, Torpedo hits 1, on fire


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Basilaki Island

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 314 troops, 4 guns, 12 vehicles

Defending force 0 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 6 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Basilaki Island base !!!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


-Conclusions: The disproportion of forces made an USN
-victory almost certain. Total losses were 180 AF for IJN
-and 80 for USN (50 operational losses for IJN). AA losses
-were 75 for USN and 115 for IJN. USN CVīs are able to
-pursue the enemy (this battle happened outside the range
-of LBA). Japanse planes are suffering very heavy losses
-and achieving very few hits despite relatively high numbers
-of fighters)
Post #: 1
- 2/10/2003 12:18:46 AM   
mapr

 

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Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Finland
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Happened against me...

Can't say if this was a something to fix, my mistake was to leave React on and did not to set CV's to run far enough... Result really was not surprise.

IJN fighters were fatigued 20,23,26,24. CAP was 30%, so from that should not come more fatigue.

Bomber groups fatigues averaged about 25, about half had 19 or 20 ja other half 30... All groups were well trained and most had about 90 morale. One or two had 60.

(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 2
- 2/10/2003 12:35:05 AM   
afenelon

 

Posts: 498
Joined: 3/25/2001
From: Belo Horizonte
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mapr
[B]Happened against me...

Can't say if this was a something to fix, my mistake was to leave React on and did not to set CV's to run far enough... Result really was not surprise.

-I donīt know. I agree that the USN is expected to win, but
-the IJN should be able to inflict more damaged. Historically,
-well trained IJN bombers crews were able to get hits if
-they could launch their bombs/torpedoes.

IJN fighters were fatigued 20,23,26,24. CAP was 30%, so from that should not come more fatigue.

-My CAP level was 70%. I didnīt take notes from fatigue
-levels. Were probably around 15-20.

Bomber groups fatigues averaged about 25, about half had 19 or 20 ja other half 30... All groups were well trained and most had about 90 morale. One or two had 60.

-This situation is similar to the other time I was playing IJN vs,
-denihson. IJN bombers were fatigued due to former missions
-(in the last day, mapr wiped out one of my convoys)

(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 3
- 2/10/2003 5:03:22 AM   
Point Luck

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: East Coast-US
Status: offline
I don't feel there's a real unbalance between forces. Keeping in mind that US has better A/C capability and AA support. Knowing this my TF has the max ships in order to increase AA capability.

The following combat report is based on a battle between TF's both about the same level of fatigue. The real difference is US TF is comprized of 10 ships 4 carriers and IJN TF 25 ships and 5 carriers.

Air attack on IJN TF at 34,44

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 60

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7
F4U-1 Corsair x 4
SBD Dauntless x 30
TBF Avenger x 31

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero x 4 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 6 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2 damaged
F4U-1 Corsair x 2 destroyed
F4U-1 Corsair x 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 27 destroyed (mostly AA Damage)
SBD Dauntless x 6 damaged
TBF Avenger x 25 destroyed (mostly AA Damage)
TBF Avenger x 4 damaged

CPO U.Muto of DI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 5

Japanese Ships
CL Tama A1
CV Akagi
CV Hiryu, Bomb hits 1
CVL Ryujo
CV Kaga

Air attack on US TF at 40,44

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 48
D3A Val x 81
B5N Kate x 97

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 13
F4F-4 Wildcat x 25
F6F Hellcat x 26
F4U-1 Corsair x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero x 46 destroyed (CAP Damage)
A6M3 Zero x 1 damaged
D3A Val x 69 destroyed
D3A Val x 19 damaged
B5N Kate x 67 destroyed
B5N Kate x 37 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 5 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 2 damaged
F4F-4 Wildcat x 8 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 4 damaged
F6F Hellcat x 1 destroyed
F6F Hellcat x 5 damaged
F4U-1 Corsair x 5 damaged

LCDR B.Hammond of VF-18 is credited with kill number 7

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise
CV Cherokee
CVL Cowpens, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
CV Alamo, Torpedo hits 1
CA Chester
CVL Princeton, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Canberra

(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 4
- 2/10/2003 5:07:58 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline
CV Cherokee? CV Alamo? What are those?

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"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 5
- 2/10/2003 5:32:04 AM   
afenelon

 

Posts: 498
Joined: 3/25/2001
From: Belo Horizonte
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Point Luck
[B]I don't feel there's a real unbalance between forces. Keeping in mind that US has better A/C capability and AA support. Knowing this my TF has the max ships in order to increase AA capability.

The following combat report is based on a battle between TF's both about the same level of fatigue. The real difference is US TF is comprized of 10 ships 4 carriers and IJN TF 25 ships and 5 carriers.

Air attack on IJN TF at 34,44

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 60

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7
F4U-1 Corsair x 4
SBD Dauntless x 30
TBF Avenger x 31

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero x 4 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 6 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2 damaged
F4U-1 Corsair x 2 destroyed
F4U-1 Corsair x 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 27 destroyed (mostly AA Damage)
SBD Dauntless x 6 damaged
TBF Avenger x 25 destroyed (mostly AA Damage)
TBF Avenger x 4 damaged

CPO U.Muto of DI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 5

Japanese Ships
CL Tama A1
CV Akagi
CV Hiryu, Bomb hits 1
CVL Ryujo
CV Kaga

Air attack on US TF at 40,44

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 48
D3A Val x 81
B5N Kate x 97

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 13
F4F-4 Wildcat x 25
F6F Hellcat x 26
F4U-1 Corsair x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero x 46 destroyed (CAP Damage)
A6M3 Zero x 1 damaged
D3A Val x 69 destroyed
D3A Val x 19 damaged
B5N Kate x 67 destroyed
B5N Kate x 37 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 5 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 2 damaged
F4F-4 Wildcat x 8 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 4 damaged
F6F Hellcat x 1 destroyed
F6F Hellcat x 5 damaged
F4U-1 Corsair x 5 damaged

LCDR B.Hammond of VF-18 is credited with kill number 7

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise
CV Cherokee
CVL Cowpens, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
CV Alamo, Torpedo hits 1
CA Chester
CVL Princeton, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Canberra [/B][/QUOTE]


-So an attack by almost 200 IJN bombers escorted by 48 Zeros
-ended with 170 IJN planes shot down (including 46 Zeros).
-And only 20 USN fighters lost.....while a much smaller attack
-by USN resulted in 60 losses, despite a strong CAP? I still
-feel that is some bias here. Itīs ok. to say that IJN bombers
-were quite fragile (even in carrier battle they won, Santa
-Cruz Islands, IJN bombers fell like flies...), but they also were
-quite good at hitting US carriers once they survived the flak
-and the fighters. The current system seem to simply make
-US carriers become invulnerable when they have large CAPīs
-while Zeros donīt do the same for IJN

(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 6
- 2/10/2003 5:33:46 AM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
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Hey, if you're going to accept the short end of almost 2:1 odds, you're gonna get creamed.

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
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CVB Langley:

(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 7
- 2/10/2003 6:22:07 AM   
Point Luck

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: East Coast-US
Status: offline
Accept it? Do I have a choice?

It just one more issue supporting that fact that if you play IJN then your are on the short end of the stick.

(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 8
- 2/10/2003 6:33:20 AM   
Weathersfield

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 2/2/2003
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Let me post my last Combat Report. I am IJN in this and I dont see anything wrong with the results. This is senario 2. IJN has a TF with 2 CVs and 1 CVL, the Allies 3 CVs.
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/26/42

Weather: Thunderstorms

Air attack on TF at 38,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 41

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 13
SBD Dauntless x 27
TBF Avenger x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 5 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 7 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 3 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 8 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 22 damaged
TBF Avenger x 5 destroyed
TBF Avenger x 5 damaged

PO1 S.Nikaido of DI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 2

LCDR M. Leslie of VB-3 bails out and is CAPTURED

Japanese Ships
CL Katori
CV Zuikaku
CVL Ryujo
DD Akitsuki
DD Yamagumo, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Shokaku


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 38,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 21

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 12
SBD Dauntless x 29
TBF Avenger x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 12 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 19 damaged
TBF Avenger x 8 destroyed
TBF Avenger x 5 damaged

PO2 W.Tokuda of DI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 3

LCDR R. Best of VB-6 is KILLED

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku
CVL Ryujo
CV Shokaku
CA Chikuma
DD Asagumo


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 38,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 34

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 12
SBD Dauntless x 22
TBF Avenger x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 10 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 15 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 10 damaged
TBF Avenger x 1 destroyed
TBF Avenger x 8 damaged

CPO R.Kojima of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 4

LCDR J. Eldridge of VS-71 bails out and is CAPTURED

Japanese Ships
DD Yugumo
BB Hiei, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Makigumo
CA Takao
CL Nagara, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA Atago, Torpedo hits 1, on fire


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 42,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 33
D3A Val x 44
B5N Kate x 42

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 23
F4F-4 Wildcat x 34

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 18 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
D3A Val x 9 destroyed
D3A Val x 21 damaged
B5N Kate x 22 destroyed
B5N Kate x 17 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 3 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 2 damaged
F4F-4 Wildcat x 13 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2 damaged

ENS L.Berg of VF-71 is credited with kill number 4

LT T. Ema of EII-2 Daitai is KILLED

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 1
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 3
DD Monssen


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 9
- 2/10/2003 7:56:13 AM   
Full Moon

 

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Joined: 1/25/2003
From: Texas
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Wow, USN CVs got creamed.
Weathersfield, did you use the surface force as a bait?:cool:

_____________________________

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(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 10
- 2/10/2003 8:06:58 AM   
Weathersfield

 

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Not 'bait', but as an added target, a defenseive move, and to use as a bombardment TF if possible, and possibly as an surface raider against something of his. I think the big point is that the IJN had no real problem protecting the taskforces present. They suffered some hits, but nothing to their CVs. And they were able to counter attack the USN with good results. I think this AAR shows a balanceing result since the previous ones here showed results balanced toward the USN. The IJN had better experience but lower fatigue( I forgot and left them with airfields as a secondary target for two turns). The USN have better aircraft and I think more of them. I made no air unit changes, they were the one that started on the CVs. There should have been some LRCAP but it didn't show it.

(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 11
- 2/10/2003 8:19:45 AM   
Mr.Frag


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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 23,29

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 12
B5N Kate x 45

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 29

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 3 destroyed
B5N Kate x 17 destroyed
B5N Kate x 37 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 damaged

LCDR C. Fenton of VF-42 is credited with kill number 4

Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Yorktown, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 23,29

Japanese aircraft
B5N Kate x 12

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 36

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate x 6 destroyed
B5N Kate x 9 damaged


LT M. Nakamoto of EIII-3 Daitai is KILLED

Allied Ships
CV Yorktown, on fire, heavy damage
CV Lexington, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The USA loses quite nicely too, might want to try the AI on very hard :D Nothing but Kates cause I ate all his Vals the last time we met ...

(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 12
USN Disasters - 2/10/2003 8:29:11 AM   
mogami


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Hi, In the AAR with AdmDadman you will find 5 USN CV getting completely clobbered by the IJN (2 TF's 1 3xCV other 2xCV stacked together)

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 13
- 2/10/2003 1:38:34 PM   
denisonh


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From: Upstate SC
Status: offline
And if I remember correctly, the multiple times I replayed the inital battle, the IJN won 90%+ of the time.

So there did not seem to be be a bias based on the multiple tests of the same situation.

And one thing to keep in mind about the degree of defeat, the farther away from your own bases and LBA coverage, the more likely losing the engagement will result in serious losses, as the enemy will be able to pursue vigorously.

_____________________________


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(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 14
- 2/10/2003 2:57:57 PM   
Veer


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Well, it is true that the USN can re-create the Great Marianas turkey shoot earlier that they did historically, but there are a lot of other factors at work.

Tactics, historically till early '43 the USN operated their carriers in seperate TF's. No bunching of their carriers in divisions like the IJN. This was one disadvantage, but the UV player is unlikely make the same mistake. Then Experience level, fatigue, OP points, spotting, CAP percentage, altitude, all these affect the outcome of the battle.

While i'll admit that the zero on the escort mode is vastly inferior to the F4F4, it does do a decent job on CAP (provided it's rested and has high exp). The zero on escort is more cannon fodder - usefull for dying 'in place' of the bombers, but not much good for anything else.

While when the game goes into super TF mode (4+ CV's in one TF), the IJN is at a distinct disadvantage as far as aircraft losses go, it is not impossible to win.

_____________________________

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(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 15
- 2/11/2003 12:54:06 AM   
Mr.Frag


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From: Purgatory
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Japan is really in trouble if they do not inflict an early CV defeat to the Allied player. I really can't understand why people playing the Allies send their CV's out at all prior to getting another pair. Tough to sit on your hands, but you need those CV's for over a year, whats the rush? Aggression only plays into the hands of Japan.

Japan starts with 48 A6M2's + Rabaul 27 A6M2's for a total of 75 CAP/Escort (You can even offload some bombers to grab the other A6M2's from Rabaul)

USA brings 38 F4F-3's and NO replacements until one gets enough F4F-4's to fill an entire squadron.

During the first month, while Japan IS getting replacement aircraft and the Allies are NOT getting replacement aircraft, Japan can actually play against the Allies with enough CAP to shoot down EVERY single CV aircraft that the Allies can fly. Couple to this that the larger Allied CV's mean 1 less target to spread resources over when bombing (more aircraft per target) and the very short range on Allied Torpedo bombers.

This all translates to:

Japan: 75 A6M2, 43 Val, 46 Kate vs Allies: 38 F4F-3, 71 SBD, 24 TBD

If Japan can keep the range up, the TBD's don't have any value, resulting in almost parity of bombers, and a strong fighter advantage. Since 50% of damage comes from torpedos instead of bombs against 2 vs 3 targets, the odds are quite in Japan's favour early on. If you play into their hands and loose your starting CVs, you are giving away a gift that you may never recover from.

Since Japan's goal is the auto-victory conditions being met, an early loss of CV's by the Allies plays right into this, making it far simpler. The 6 CV's that are available early in the game must be absolutely cherished, as long as they exist, Japan must tie up resources they do not have to spare just in case they sortie forth.

A few extra things that come into play. Both the Lexington and the Saratoga have low fuel capacity. They will run dry pretty quickly, and milk the other CV's, eating up OPS points behind the scene which may result in slower movement. Having more planes with less fuel means more downtime getting gas in port, or a dependancy on a AO/TK convoy following you around everywhere you go. You have two options here, plot course for the Fuel TF and have the CV's follow it (limiting your speed) or run constant cap over both targets. This situation is not improved until the Essex class CV's arrive, and that is well after Japan's auto-victory date hits. One thing that very much shocked me is that CV's with no endurance left continue to fly aircraft like the had full tanks. This is really wrong, and should be fixed in the next patch.

(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 16
- 2/11/2003 8:51:09 AM   
afenelon

 

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From: Belo Horizonte
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veer

While i'll admit that the zero on the escort mode is vastly inferior to the F4F4, it does do a decent job on CAP (provided it's rested and has high exp). The zero on escort is more cannon fodder - usefull for dying 'in place' of the bombers, but not much good for anything else.

-Youīre right, but is it historical? In versions prior to 2.2, the
-Zero did relatively well as escort.

While when the game goes into super TF mode (4+ CV's in one TF), the IJN is at a distinct disadvantage as far as aircraft losses go, it is not impossible to win.

-Youīre right again, thatīs the main point, I think. However,
-what Iīm complaining is that even massive attacks by Vals
-and Kates are unable to get more than a few hits, while
-historically, those planes were able to get a few hits even if
-almost them were shot down (provided they had good crews)

(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 17
- 2/11/2003 8:59:03 AM   
afenelon

 

Posts: 498
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From: Belo Horizonte
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by denisonh
[B]And if I remember correctly, the multiple times I replayed the inital battle, the IJN won 90%+ of the time.

-I think it were 50% IJN victories, 40% draws and 10% IJN defeats?

So there did not seem to be be a bias based on the multiple tests of the same situation.

-You convinced me about that, but Iīve been looking at some
-combat reports were large F4F CAPīs make the US CVīs
-virtually invulnerable. This seems to be a trouble to me. On
-the other hand, IJN losses were really huge in Santa Cruz
-battle, where the USN CAP was made of something like
-50 F4Fīs. I think two bias must be sought:
1-Why Vals and Kates are almost useless when they face large
CAPīs?
2-Why Zeros are useless as escorts?

And one thing to keep in mind about the degree of defeat, the farther away from your own bases and LBA coverage, the more likely losing the engagement will result in serious losses, as the enemy will be able to pursue vigorously. [/B][/QUOTE]


-Agree with you on our game, but in this other one, I was faced
-again with large IJN formations being unable to get more than
-a few hits (of course, I had an numerical advantage you didnīt)

(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 18
- 2/11/2003 9:04:32 AM   
afenelon

 

Posts: 498
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From: Belo Horizonte
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Weathersfield
[B]Let me post my last Combat Report. I am IJN in this and I dont see anything wrong with the results. This is senario 2. IJN has a TF with 2 CVs and 1 CVL, the Allies 3 CVs.
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/26/42

Weather: Thunderstorms

Air attack on TF at 38,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 41

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 13
SBD Dauntless x 27
TBF Avenger x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 5 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 7 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 3 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 8 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 22 damaged
TBF Avenger x 5 destroyed
TBF Avenger x 5 damaged

PO1 S.Nikaido of DI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 2

LCDR M. Leslie of VB-3 bails out and is CAPTURED

Japanese Ships
CL Katori
CV Zuikaku
CVL Ryujo
DD Akitsuki
DD Yamagumo, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Shokaku


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 38,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 21

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 12
SBD Dauntless x 29
TBF Avenger x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 12 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 19 damaged
TBF Avenger x 8 destroyed
TBF Avenger x 5 damaged

PO2 W.Tokuda of DI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 3

LCDR R. Best of VB-6 is KILLED

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku
CVL Ryujo
CV Shokaku
CA Chikuma
DD Asagumo


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 38,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 34

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 12
SBD Dauntless x 22
TBF Avenger x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 10 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 15 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 10 damaged
TBF Avenger x 1 destroyed
TBF Avenger x 8 damaged

CPO R.Kojima of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 4

LCDR J. Eldridge of VS-71 bails out and is CAPTURED

Japanese Ships
DD Yugumo
BB Hiei, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Makigumo
CA Takao
CL Nagara, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA Atago, Torpedo hits 1, on fire


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 42,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 33
D3A Val x 44
B5N Kate x 42

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 23
F4F-4 Wildcat x 34

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 18 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
D3A Val x 9 destroyed
D3A Val x 21 damaged
B5N Kate x 22 destroyed
B5N Kate x 17 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 3 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 2 damaged
F4F-4 Wildcat x 13 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2 damaged

ENS L.Berg of VF-71 is credited with kill number 4

LT T. Ema of EII-2 Daitai is KILLED

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 1
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 3
DD Monssen


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [

-In scenario 2 the USN has few F4F-4īs (F4F-3īs get no
-replacements), so they are unable to build a super CAP
-to decimate IJN bombers. Thatīs why IJN usually wins
-both Coral Sea and East Salomons. The troubles, I think,
-come when USN gets 36 F4Fīs in each carrier and then
-IJN simply cannot hit the US carriers even if their bombers
-have a heavy escort (because Zeros are pathetic in this
-role). And in scenario 2 the IJN have lots of surface units
-to divert USN attacks.

(in reply to afenelon)
Post #: 19
- 2/11/2003 10:14:18 AM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by afenelon
[B]

In scenario 2 the USN has few F4F-4īs (F4F-3īs get no replacements), so they are unable to build a super CAP to decimate IJN bombers. Thatīs why IJN usually wins both Coral Sea and East Salomons. The troubles, I think, come when USN gets 36 F4Fīs in each carrier and then IJN simply cannot hit the US carriers even if their bombers have a heavy escort (because Zeros are pathetic in this role). And in scenario 2 the IJN have lots of surface units to divert USN attacks. [/B][/QUOTE]In Scenario 1 (Coral Sea), both [I]Lexington[/I] (21 of 36) and [I]Yorktown[/I] (17/36) are SEVERELY understrength

In Scenario 2 (Eastern Solomons), only [I]Saratoga[/I] carries the F4F-3, and all 3 US carriers are near full strength:[list]
  • [I]Saratoga[/I] 28/36
  • [I]Enterprise[/I] 29/36
  • [I]Wasp[/I] 25/30
    [/list]
    If you're playing as IJN and take on the US CV's 1:1 in ships, you're gonna lose more often than not due to IJN smaller CV air groups. If you're 1:1 in aircraft, and still lose, then you have to look at how you're handling your air assets.

    If you look at the Mogami/DadMan AAR, see the carrier battle around 15-20 Aug 42. You'll see a slightly stronger USN CV force (5 CV's in 2 TF's) get nailed by an IJN carrier force of 3 CV and 2 CVL. Granted, had the SBD's not lost their escorts, the IJN would have taken more damage (they did anyway due to my incredible Carrier avorice - a little bit too much like Halsey there), but it was a major slug-fest.

    You can't look at carrier battles in a vacuum, because to some extent, they all occurred tied to a land-based objecive.

    _____________________________

    Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
    (\../)
    (O.o)
    (> <)

    CVB Langley:

    (in reply to afenelon)
  • Post #: 20
    UV biased in FAVOR of IJN - 2/11/2003 7:08:38 PM   
    elcid

     

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    From: Lakewood Washington
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    I only play Japan as no one will let me have the firepower of the allies ...

    I find in 1942 I can be CONFIDENT of standing up to enemy carriers at anything 1:1 or better - even though the US carriers often have more planes - IF I deploy my planes properly and IF I keep my ships well replenished and in good repair. It also matters what altitude you pick. AI choices are not best.

    Instead of 10,000 feet for dive bombers, try 15,000 feet (give or take) and you will get better strings with greater chance of a hit but a reduced chance of losses (for any given total number of bombers)


    Run some fighters in with the dive bombers, also at 15,000 feet - and others at 10,000 feet (AI choice) - and a third set at 5,000 feet with the torpedo bombers - and you will get good results. Be sure to have 60 or 70 per cent on CAP but NEVER more unless there is NO chance of needing to escort - or your bombers will go in without fighters - or too few fighters - or refuse to go in at all!

    (in reply to afenelon)
    Post #: 21
    - 2/12/2003 6:08:18 AM   
    afenelon

     

    Posts: 498
    Joined: 3/25/2001
    From: Belo Horizonte
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Admiral DadMan
    [B]In Scenario 1 (Coral Sea), both [I]Lexington[/I] (21 of 36) and [I]Yorktown[/I] (17/36) are SEVERELY understrength

    In Scenario 2 (Eastern Solomons), only [I]Saratoga[/I] carries the F4F-3, and all 3 US carriers are near full strength:[list]
  • [I]Saratoga[/I] 28/36
  • [I]Enterprise[/I] 29/36
  • [I]Wasp[/I] 25/30

    -This gives you 80 fighters overall, against 70 Japanese
    -(24 on Sho and Zui plus 22 on Ryujo). Putting the US
    -CAP on 70% it will give you a CAP near 50. Impressive,
    -but still isnīt a super CAP.


    If you're playing as IJN and take on the US CV's 1:1 in ships, you're gonna lose more often than not due to IJN smaller CV air groups. If you're 1:1 in aircraft, and still lose, then you have to look at how you're handling your air assets.

    -I think this depends on how may F4Fīs the US has on CAP
    -more than the overall number of AF itself.

    If you look at the Mogami/DadMan AAR, see the carrier battle around 15-20 Aug 42. You'll see a slightly stronger USN CV force (5 CV's in 2 TF's) get nailed by an IJN carrier force of 3 CV and 2 CVL. Granted, had the SBD's not lost their escorts, the IJN would have taken more damage (they did anyway due to my incredible Carrier avorice - a little bit too much like Halsey there), but it was a major slug-fest.

    -I will take a look here, but itīs possible that the USN lost its
    -super CAP advantage due to dispersion of CVīs in two TFīs.

    You can't look at carrier battles in a vacuum, because to some extent, they all occurred tied to a land-based objecive.

    -Agree with you, but my battle vs. mapr happened at a resonable
    -distance from LBA and no LBA took part on that.

    (in reply to afenelon)
  • Post #: 22
    Re: UV biased in FAVOR of IJN - 2/12/2003 6:11:36 AM   
    afenelon

     

    Posts: 498
    Joined: 3/25/2001
    From: Belo Horizonte
    Status: offline
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by elcid
    [B]I only play Japan as no one will let me have the firepower of the allies ...

    I find in 1942 I can be CONFIDENT of standing up to enemy carriers at anything 1:1 or better - even though the US carriers often have more planes - IF I deploy my planes properly and IF I keep my ships well replenished and in good repair. It also matters what altitude you pick. AI choices are not best.

    Instead of 10,000 feet for dive bombers, try 15,000 feet (give or take) and you will get better strings with greater chance of a hit but a reduced chance of losses (for any given total number of bombers)


    Run some fighters in with the dive bombers, also at 15,000 feet - and others at 10,000 feet (AI choice) - and a third set at 5,000 feet with the torpedo bombers - and you will get good results. Be sure to have 60 or 70 per cent on CAP but NEVER more unless there is NO chance of needing to escort - or your bombers will go in without fighters - or too few fighters - or refuse to go in at all! [/B][/QUOTE]


    -Could you post some of your OOBīs?

    (in reply to afenelon)
    Post #: 23
    - 2/12/2003 6:24:51 AM   
    afenelon

     

    Posts: 498
    Joined: 3/25/2001
    From: Belo Horizonte
    Status: offline
    In Scenario 2 (Eastern Solomons), only [I]Saratoga[/I] carries the F4F-3, and all 3 US carriers are near full strength:[list]
  • [I]Saratoga[/I] 28/36
  • [I]Enterprise[/I] 29/36
  • [I]Wasp[/I] 25/30
    [/list]

    -But it seems our friend had less F4Fīs that those numbers.
    -Look again to his OOB.

    If you look at the Mogami/DadMan AAR, see the carrier battle around 15-20 Aug 42. You'll see a slightly stronger USN CV force (5 CV's in 2 TF's) get nailed by an IJN carrier force of 3 CV and 2 CVL. Granted, had the SBD's not lost their escorts, the IJN would have taken more damage (they did anyway due to my incredible Carrier avorice - a little bit too much like Halsey there), but it was a major slug-fest.

    -Very interesting. Zeros did very well both as escorts and
    -CAP. It seems fatigue could be the difference?

    (in reply to afenelon)
  • Post #: 24
    Re: UV biased in FAVOR of IJN - 2/12/2003 2:59:59 PM   
    Veer


    Posts: 2231
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    From: Excuse me
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by elcid
    [B]Run some fighters in with the dive bombers, also at 15,000 feet - and others at 10,000 feet (AI choice) - and a third set at 5,000 feet with the torpedo bombers - and you will get good results. [/B][/QUOTE]

    I assume you are talking about CAP altitudes? Does staggering altitudes work, I havn't seen vastly differing results when i tried it?

    On Escort the Fighters will be within 2000-3000 feet of the bombers so alitude dosn't seem to matter that much.

    _____________________________

    In time of war the first casualty is truth. - Boake Carter

    (in reply to afenelon)
    Post #: 25
    - 2/14/2003 8:06:07 AM   
    afenelon

     

    Posts: 498
    Joined: 3/25/2001
    From: Belo Horizonte
    Status: offline
    Follow up battle:

    afenelon vs. mapr

    -Even believing my victory was not very fair, I pursued
    -the enemy carriers, who were retreating to Shortland.
    -In the following two days, bad weather prevented
    -air operations. In the third day, USN dive bombers
    -located and destroyed the Shoho. Confident on my
    -super CAP and in the destruction of enemy fighters,
    -my carriers approached dangeroulsy Shortland. In
    -the fourth day, the weather allowed full scale air
    -operations......


    AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/13/42

    Weather: Clear

    Sub attack at 31,40

    Allied Ships
    SS S-39


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sub attack at 31,40

    Japanese Ships
    CV Zuikaku, heavy damage

    Allied Ships
    SS Thresher

    -US subs made first contact with enemy..torpedos misses
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Air attack on TF, near Shortland Island at 29,34

    Japanese aircraft
    A6M2 Zero x 8

    Allied aircraft
    SBD Dauntless x 18

    Japanese aircraft losses
    A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged

    Allied aircraft losses
    SBD Dauntless x 6 destroyed
    SBD Dauntless x 11 damaged

    LTJG G.Koizumi of BI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 3

    Japanese Ships
    DD Ushio
    CA Haguro, Bomb hits 1
    DD Akebono

    -Instead of attacking the crippled CV, my stupid SBD sqdn
    -commander directed his planes to Shortland, where he
    -attacked a surface group.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Air attack on TF at 25,43


    Allied aircraft
    TBD Devastator x 15


    Allied aircraft losses
    TBD Devastator x 2 damaged

    Japanese Ships
    AP Goyo Maru, heavy damage

    -TBDīs unable to finish a damaged transport ship floating
    -near my CVīs

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Air attack on TF at 25,43


    Allied aircraft
    TBD Devastator x 14


    Allied aircraft losses
    TBD Devastator x 2 damaged

    Japanese Ships
    AP Goyo Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

    -This torpedo sank the ship. Two TBD squadrons necessary....
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Air attack on TF at 30,39


    Allied aircraft
    F4F-4 Wildcat x 14
    SBD Dauntless x 8
    TBD Devastator x 12


    no losses

    Japanese Ships
    CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
    CV Soryu, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

    -Finally we located the right target. This time TBDīs did a
    -good job. Soryu is doomed. Zuikaku still survives

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Air attack on TF at 30,39


    Allied aircraft
    SBD Dauntless x 18


    Allied aircraft losses
    SBD Dauntless x 1 damaged

    Japanese Ships
    CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
    CV Soryu, on fire, heavy damage

    -Now itīs Zuikakuīs time....
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Air attack on TF, near Shortland Island at 29,34

    Japanese aircraft
    A6M2 Zero x 8

    Allied aircraft
    SBD Dauntless x 32

    Japanese aircraft losses
    A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged

    Allied aircraft losses
    SBD Dauntless x 1 destroyed
    SBD Dauntless x 2 damaged

    Japanese Ships
    CA Aoba, Bomb hits 9, on fire, heavy damage

    -Again an attack against surfece ships. Will Aoba sink?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Air attack on TF at 30,38


    Allied aircraft
    SBD Dauntless x 27
    TBD Devastator x 13


    no losses

    Japanese Ships
    CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 10, on fire, heavy damage

    -The Shokaku (or what remained of her) was simply
    -devastated by this last attack. Now itīs time to the
    -enemy counterattack....
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Air attack on TF at 28,40

    Japanese aircraft
    A6M2 Zero x 47
    D3A Val x 20
    B5N Kate x 24
    G3M Nell x 3

    Allied aircraft
    F4F-3 Wildcat x 12
    F4F-4 Wildcat x 60

    Japanese aircraft losses
    A6M2 Zero x 39 destroyed
    A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged
    D3A Val x 12 destroyed
    D3A Val x 7 damaged
    B5N Kate x 22 destroyed
    B5N Kate x 8 damaged
    G3M Nell x 2 destroyed

    Allied aircraft losses
    F4F-3 Wildcat x 2 destroyed
    F4F-3 Wildcat x 3 damaged
    F4F-4 Wildcat x 18 destroyed
    F4F-4 Wildcat x 17 damaged

    LT N. Gayler of VF-3 is credited with kill number 7

    LCDR J. Smith of VF-8 is KILLED

    Allied Ships
    CV Enterprise, Torpedo hits 1
    CV Yorktown
    CV Lexington, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

    Attacking Level Bombers:
    0 x G3M Nell at 200 feet

    -What a surprise. The enemy send his planes to Shortland
    -and made a last full attack. They did much better than the
    -first time, despite the fact they had less planes. Also his
    -23 bombers who survived CAP achieved 2 hits..quite
    -reasonable. Maybe his bombers crews were not fatigued.
    -However, I still call attention to the poor perfomance of
    -A6Mīs as escorts.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Air attack on TF at 30,39


    Allied aircraft
    F4F-4 Wildcat x 6
    SBD Dauntless x 86
    TBD Devastator x 45


    no losses


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Air attack on TF at 28,40

    Japanese aircraft
    A6M2 Zero x 16
    D3A Val x 4

    Allied aircraft
    F4F-3 Wildcat x 8
    F4F-4 Wildcat x 42

    Japanese aircraft losses
    A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
    D3A Val x 2 destroyed
    D3A Val x 2 damaged


    LTJG R. Rich of VF-6 is credited with kill number 3

    Allied Ships
    CV Enterprise


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    -In the end Soryu sinks, but the two "kakus" still are floating.
    -Any comments?

    (in reply to afenelon)
    Post #: 26
    - 2/14/2003 5:19:49 PM   
    mapr

     

    Posts: 72
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    From: Finland
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    In my experience difference between good and bad days in AC combats is much wider for Japanese than it's for allied. Or atleast when things go wrong allied planes survive much better in combat...

    What comes to the Zeros as escorts... I've noticed that they really can't take it when fighting one to one odds. Or it often may have been long flight from Rabaul to PM when have not build Lae and other bases up... Rabaul-PM have my most used flight route as Japs so far agains land targets.

    To this topic: It's newer waste of time to double check what is your CV groups React/Not to react status. And to remember to have not to react if not looking for CV fight. If I had remembered that this thread would never been started, atleast not yet :)

    (in reply to afenelon)
    Post #: 27
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