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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds 1 Series >> The War Room >> 8yrs 5mth 18dys

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8yrs 5mth 18dys - 7/9/2014 11:54:46 PM

Retreat1970

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...and my beloved rodents have no more room to stuff more litters. 25 1/2B of these smelly rats all paying 40% tax = 250k. Time to buy tech and a fleet of boats. If you froggies would stop worrying about big lasers and get to "gettin down" maybe you wouldn't be a part of the Great Atuuk Cagaur Clan!

(God this game needs a multiplayer)

There's been some hate on the Atuuk lately

just showing that it's not all bad for us rodents.

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RE: 8yrs 5mth 18dys - 7/10/2014 12:38:37 AM

Nanaki

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It is really bad. Atuuk have absolutly nothing going for them except the pop growth. Securans are actually better in both, they have 20% more happiness and superior pop growth. Gizureans are even better all-round considering they have an immortal leader, rediculously overpowered levels of pop growth of around ~1.70 when the immortal leader and cycles are accounted for, on top of having a large diplomacy, colony income and happiness bonus courtesy of immortal leader topped off with 35% ship maintenance reduction.

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RE: 8yrs 5mth 18dys - 7/10/2014 12:47:43 AM

Retreat1970

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It's not bad. We're playing the AI remember? How godly do you really have to be?

(in reply to Nanaki)

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RE: 8yrs 5mth 18dys - 7/10/2014 1:00:08 AM

Kilravock

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Hey I never said that I hated the ewoks. They make good little colonists on my non-core worlds thanks to them being very happy breeders. Fast pop growth and being happy means more tax revenue quicker. They also don't mine being part of my empire unlike the bugs. It's just fast growth races have a bad habit of migrating to and taking over colonies I don't want them to be.

I also know that these races turn the game into easy mode. Everyone thinks the techno toads are the most powerful, but that title goes to the giz and the green space babes. They win through economic might thanks to their massive populations and colony expansion.

(in reply to Nanaki)

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RE: 8yrs 5mth 18dys - 7/10/2014 4:35:49 AM

Keston

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I understand that unwarranted happiness allows much higher tax rates. Aggressive exploration and colonization can generate a lot of funds. Huge Atuuk populations might be logically scooped up into vast angry invasion parties for inhuman-wave invasions, except that the weak Atuuk units cost normally. So army strategy has to be recruiting more martial races as troops and leaving Atuuks as civilians (maybe that's why the Atuuk are so happy). I suppose seeking to lag in resarch as a victory objective can be paired with an invasion oriented strategy to maximize the number of worlds settled, but I'm not really seeing what the overall strategy is except just "Smile, be happy?" What makes sense for these furballs?

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RE: 8yrs 5mth 18dys - 7/10/2014 8:17:36 AM

Kilravock

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Why not? Not every race needs to be equal. Strategy games are more fun when the powers are not balanced. It's a major reason why I love Paradox games. Sure you can play a power house like France, but it's also fun to play some little Italian city state like Venice too fighting against the odds.

The Atuuk are a weak race that rarely become a serious power in the game and are often ignored or conquered, but they do add flavor to the game, giving it more character and life.

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RE: 8yrs 5mth 18dys - 7/10/2014 10:17:45 AM

Jeeves

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quote:

It is really bad. Atuuk have absolutly nothing going for them except the pop growth.

Atuuks, Securans, and Shandar are good for recruiting clones. You can tax them at 50% and still get a troop recruited every 19 days...

Lonnie Courtney Clay

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RE: 8yrs 5mth 18dys - 7/10/2014 11:44:39 AM

Nanaki

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quote:

Why not? Not every race needs to be equal. Strategy games are more fun when the powers are not balanced. It's a major reason why I love Paradox games. Sure you can play a power house like France, but it's also fun to play some little Italian city state like Venice too fighting against the odds.

The difference is that Paradox actually makes an attempt to have multiple first tier powers... If Paradox had one power that was much better than any other country in the game, people would complain, and it was the case with Ottomans and Sweden, note that both countries had the crap nerfed out of them in subsequent patches but Ottos are still obnoxiously powerful in spite of that. At the very least, people who have not looked under EU4's hood make it very obvious they never looked when they talk about France being a top-tier power, France's only perk is that it starts with lots of provinces, France's NIs are mediocre.

I am not asking for perfect balance, that would be foolish, I am asking for there to be more than one or two top-tier powers. I want there to be more interesting choices in races.

quote:

I also know that these races turn the game into easy mode. Everyone thinks the techno toads are the most powerful, but that title goes to the giz and the green space babes. They win through economic might thanks to their massive populations and colony expansion.

It depends. The techno toads are only really OP on prewarp starts, population growth is not as powerful and Quameno's tech advantage lets it get to the stars long before Gizureans or Securans, which means they can get first dibs on independants, ruins, and derelicts, which gives them an enormous early game advantage. As for Securans or Gizureans, Gizureans are #1 in non-prewarp starts and #2 on prewarp starts simply because their immortal leader gives them absolutly rediculous amounts of growth, money, and colony happiness. When you have a ruler with +100% Colony Income, +100% Colony Happiness, +100% Diplomacy, and +100% Population Growth, the game becomes face-rolling easy. Couple that with 35% Ship maintenance racial bonus and insane population growth to begin with and they are really OP.

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RE: 8yrs 5mth 18dys - 7/10/2014 5:45:35 PM

Kilravock

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

The difference is that Paradox actually makes an attempt to have multiple first tier powers... If Paradox had one power that was much better than any other country in the game, people would complain,

I was referring to their games in general not just EUIV, but you are right. Paradox does try to prevent any one nation from being so dominate that they blob. Mechanisms like Bad Boy/Religion/Culture are used to control it beside balancing. It's better than just nerfing everything like a MMO to the point where everyone is equal. Distant Worlds tries to do it with reputation and relationships, but it has no teeth if the aggressor is far more advance in both tech and economy. Also running a multiracial empire shouldn't be as easy as it is in this game.

quote:

It depends.

Yeah. That 'depends' is the game settings and how lucky they are with nearby systems. As you mentioned there is a is major difference in pre-warp and post-warp, but I find that large galaxies tend to nullify that difference because the larger galaxies allow the slower tech races the time they need to get the techs to expand, and once they start they will quickly catch up in overall strength. Luck with nearby systems also applies to their neighbors too. The toads don't do very well if they start next to another early expander like the Kiadians. The Kiadian are more aggressive expanders and are better fighters in both space and on the ground. Races like them can hem the toads in and prevent the toads form controlling most of the galaxy. Strong pirates can do the same.

I have often seen in prewarp games the Securans and Teekans go from being single colony failed empires to being one of the major powers in a short time. It was all because they were left alone and allowed enough room to expand into. In that situation the Securan's population and economy exploded and start fighting wars of conquest against aggressive races that are at the same tech level. The Teekans economy bonus allows them to do the same and will have a larger economy than the Haakonish since they don't agitate the entire galaxy. They will also use the cash they have to crash research so they will catch up and become a tech leader. These are both turtle races when the AI uses them if they are given the chance.

< Message edited by Kilravock -- 7/10/2014 7:01:12 PM >

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RE: 8yrs 5mth 18dys - 7/10/2014 6:33:50 PM

Nanaki

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Except you do not have to go overboard like MMOs do to balance things. EU4 for example has seen far more nerfs than Distant Worlds will ever need, and really only the Gizureans and Quameno (and Technocracy by extension) really need nerfing. The only place I think serious changes need to be done is perhaps government, as the populist governments (Republic, Democracy) are much, much stronger than the autocrat governments, and a lot of that has to do with the silliness of populist governments focusing exclusively on peacetime bonuses and autocratic governments focusing exclusively on wartime bonuses.

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RE: 8yrs 5mth 18dys - 7/10/2014 10:07:40 PM

Kilravock

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Yeah I defiantly agree that the governments need to be rebalanced the most. Governments like Technocracy and Democracy are almost broken in how powerful they are compared to the other types. It is because of the division of the peace vs. war bonuses.

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RE: 8yrs 5mth 18dys - 7/11/2014 1:46:09 AM

Retreat1970

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I guess my point was it doesn't matter what race you play. You can dominate as anyone. If there was DW multiplayer (wish), then all of the balance arguements would be valid.

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RE: 8yrs 5mth 18dys - 7/11/2014 2:16:42 AM

Nanaki

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I disagree, because NPCs benefit from those perks just as much as PCs do. With vanilla settings, I have continuously had Quameno dominating my prewarp games due to their early head starts. Ever since I started tweaking the game, my current game I actually have about nearly a dozen 'major powers' and all but one race has multiple colonies. About the only exception that could be mentioned would probably be Ketarov. Ketarov is absolutly lousy in AI hands, but a human player can do a LOT of damage with them, simply because intelligence missions are one of those things the AI is absolutly useless at.

I am not asking for perfect balance. I am asking for the races on the extreme ends of the balance scale, Quameno and Gizureans on one end, Atuuk and Shandar on the other, to be brought closer to the middle. There is really no reason for the Quameno to start off with a +110% RP bonus (40% from racial, 50% from technocracy, 20% from the ultra genius starting character), when most other races can only muster 25% at most, 45% if they manage to luck out on Scientists. That kind of technological advantage is just silly. Then you have the Gizureans, with already great growth and a -35% ship maintenance bonus, starting with a permanent leader that gives +40% to population growth, and has Colony Income, Colony Happiness, and Diplomacy as skills.

As an extension from this, some races have tons of interesting mechanics piled on, while others seem absolutly barren.

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RE: 8yrs 5mth 18dys - 7/11/2014 5:53:09 AM

Keston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Retreat1970

I guess my point was it doesn't matter what race you play. You can dominate as anyone. If there was DW multiplayer (wish), then all of the balance arguements would be valid.

Sure it matters who you play - different victory conditions, different attributes, different troops, even some different technology so most suitable strategies will differ.

(in reply to Retreat1970)

Post #: 14