Major USN v PLAN CV-based scenarios?

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Major USN v PLAN CV-based scenarios? - 12/28/2014 12:39:52 PM

Solaristics

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I decided to get off the fence and buy this game. I took a cursory look through the scenario list, both official pack and community pack, and I didn't see any major USN v PLAN CV-on-CV scenarios. What I have in mind is a recreation of VPG's very good "Fleets:2025" game (http://www.victorypointgames.com/fleets-2025.html). I might have missed something, but I only saw a couple of small USN-PLAN engagements.

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RE: Major USN v PLAN CV-based scenarios? - 12/28/2014 1:00:47 PM

mikmykWS

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Sounds great

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RE: Major USN v PLAN CV-based scenarios? - 12/28/2014 1:09:31 PM

Solaristics

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Yeah, but I was hoping someone else had already done it!

. Not sure I'm ever going to get the time. Hopefully someone will be inspired at some point to tackle it.

< Message edited by Hondo -- 12/28/2014 2:09:56 PM >

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RE: Major USN v PLAN CV-based scenarios? - 12/28/2014 5:11:36 PM

ExNusquam

Posts: 513
Joined: 3/4/2014
From: Washington, D.C.
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Try "Play the Fool" in the community scenario pack. I'm not sure if it's been updated to the current version, however, it was a great scenario when it was first released.

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RE: Major USN v PLAN CV-based scenarios? - 12/29/2014 3:52:02 AM

Grackle

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As mentioned "Play the Fool" has PLAN CV-16 defending against an amphib assault in the Paracels. Also, Mission 2013D Part 1 has the CV-16 supporting a PLA Taiwan invasion scenario. With the editor it is very easy to tailor or modify scenarios to your taste if that's not exactly what your looking for.

Best,

Mark

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RE: Major USN v PLAN CV-based scenarios? - 1/3/2015 4:03:46 AM

poaw

Posts: 107
Joined: 12/17/2001
From: Houston, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hondo

I decided to get off the fence and buy this game. I took a cursory look through the scenario list, both official pack and community pack, and I didn't see any major USN v PLAN CV-on-CV scenarios. What I have in mind is a recreation of VPG's very good "Fleets:2025" game (http://www.victorypointgames.com/fleets-2025.html). I might have missed something, but I only saw a couple of small USN-PLAN engagements.

Making a straight force-on-force scenario for USN and PLAN carriers (and their associated battlegroups) is difficult from the perspective of balance. The USN quite simply has every advantage over its counterpart. An American Carrier Strike Group has 2-3 times as many strike aircraft (~48 against the Liaoning's 16-24), with better supporting aircraft (electronic attack and fixed-wing airborne early warning aircraft). The escorts are more comparable between the two sides, with the PLAN having a clear advantage in surface-launched AShMs, but with almost no way utilize it (it is almost impossible to get in range).

You have to either handicap the USN or bolster the PLAN to bring them even close to parity. Small deck carriers don't work well either as both the Harriers and F-35Bs lack viable load outs for attacking a CVBG (no Harpoons or SLAM-ERs or HARMs), the best you can do is the BROACH JSOWs which put the launching aircraft well into the range of their SAMs and CAP fighters.

I do plan on updating Play The Fool in the near future (database, new events using Lua and some changes to increase challenge and replayability), it was just on the back burner because I thought noone liked it. I might try my hand at something closer to a force-on-force matchup but I'd have to come up with a way to make such a scenario doable for the the PLAN and/or interesting for the USN.

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RE: Major USN v PLAN CV-based scenarios? - 1/3/2015 4:06:13 PM

Hongjian

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As a balancing feature, you could maybe give the PLAN support from shore-based aircrafts, such as H-6 series of AShM bombers (equipped with the long ranged YJ-12, for example), as well as AEW&C and jammers (Y-8G stand-off ECM jamming plane). Another flight or even a regiment of 24 J-11BH or Su-30MK2 naval Flankers would also even the odds out, and look more realistic in a military stand-point, as China would hardly challenge the USN out in the open ocean, but keep themselves close to their shores, benefitting from all sorts of land based supports.

In the end, when you really want to do a strictly naval confrontation, you should probably wait for the next update when, hopefully, the new 12.000 tonne Type 055 Destroyer for the PLAN gets included. This one would have enough missile armament if offset the PLAN disadvantage a bit.

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RE: Major USN v PLAN CV-based scenarios? - 1/3/2015 4:23:26 PM

Hongjian

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Another idea for a more balanced scenario would be to include some J-15S twin-seat Sea-Flankers to the PLAN CAG, equipped with offensive ECM pods (you have to mod them in, as they arent equipped in the DB as of now).

According to Chinese research papers, there are plans to use the J-15S equipped with offensive jammers and Anti-Radiation Missiles as the PLAN's Growler eequivalents, stationed onboard the Liaoning and future carriers.

< Message edited by Hongjian -- 1/3/2015 8:58:53 PM >

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RE: Major USN v PLAN CV-based scenarios? - 1/3/2015 10:50:09 PM

Sakai007

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I have built a few simple (i.e. no scoring/events/etc.) scenarios involving the USN taking on the PLAN with and with out ROC assistance. As I build, I am always asking myself if the situation is plausible in the least. What I have learned is, as a power projection force the PLAN is lacking is many key areas and doesn't hold a candle to the USN. In the Area Denial capacity, however, it's a much different story. When the USN is attempting to project it's power onto Chinese shores, even it's coastal waters, all of the disparate pieces of Chinese weaponry come together like a puzzle. The sheer size of their air force has always been a concern, but now the vast numbers aren't museum relics like the J-7, their highly capable multi role fighters like the J-10, J-11, and Su-30. My conclusion has been that a war between the two super powers would be so costly to both sides that winning just means being top loser. Against nations other the the US, China fares even better. I built a scenario recently about an Indian Strike on Chinese facilities in Sri Lanka. Using strictly Indian assets, the Chinese were able to destroy many of my fighters (Tejas, Mig-29, Su-30) while losing surprisingly few of their J-10's with AESA radars. Chinese SAMs also proved to be quite effective. I feel that the window of opportunity where the US could have fought the Chinese and won decisively has been slammed shut for some time.

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RE: Major USN v PLAN CV-based scenarios? - 1/4/2015 2:07:34 AM

poaw

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From: Houston, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

As a balancing feature, you could maybe give the PLAN support from shore-based aircrafts, such as H-6 series of AShM bombers (equipped with the long ranged YJ-12, for example), as well as AEW&C and jammers (Y-8G stand-off ECM jamming plane). Another flight or even a regiment of 24 J-11BH or Su-30MK2 naval Flankers would also even the odds out, and look more realistic in a military stand-point, as China would hardly challenge the USN out in the open ocean, but keep themselves close to their shores, benefitting from all sorts of land based supports.

In the end, when you really want to do a strictly naval confrontation, you should probably wait for the next update when, hopefully, the new 12.000 tonne Type 055 Destroyer for the PLAN gets included. This one would have enough missile armament if offset the PLAN disadvantage a bit.

I tried that, the scenario creation tools available at the time couldn't use land and naval air power in tandem competently. The maritime patrol aspects worked but when it came time to put together a strike they wouldn't coordinate their attacks in an effective manner. With Lua or the advanced strike planner I might be able to pull it off.

As far as the Type 055 is concerned, I don't think it will help. The problem isn't a lack of AShMs, it is the fact that the American carrier air wings are so much better than their Chinese counterpart and can use that superiority to surface vessels out of range of detection and attack using their advantages. Increasing the missile count just means a much better armed fleet is sitting there impotently.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sakai007
I feel that the window of opportunity where the US could have fought the Chinese and won decisively has been slammed shut for some time.

Until China has the ability project sea power away from the shore and secure their SLOCs decisive defeat is the most likely outcome of a war at sea with the US (and to a lesser extent India). Having parity in the waters immediately around you doesn't do much good when you need to import 5 supertankers a day from thousands of nautical miles away.

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RE: Major USN v PLAN CV-based scenarios? - 1/4/2015 5:11:04 AM

ExNusquam

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From: Washington, D.C.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: poaw
I do plan on updating Play The Fool in the near future (database, new events using Lua and some changes to increase challenge and replayability), it was just on the back burner because I thought noone liked it. I might try my hand at something closer to a force-on-force matchup but I'd have to come up with a way to make such a scenario doable for the the PLAN and/or interesting for the USN.

I loved Play the Fool last time I played it; didn't realize you were the author of that one.

If you wanted to make it a bit more difficult, you could always try adding one of the Chinese SAR satellites. That might make it more difficult for the USN player to hide from the Chinese.

(in reply to poaw)

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RE: Major USN v PLAN CV-based scenarios? - 1/4/2015 4:30:21 PM

jtoatoktoe

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U.S. Navy's weakest asset in my opinion...is the Harpoon. Can probably still get the job done, but the Air Launched LRASM and the full on competition can't come soon enough. I wish they'd put some LRASM'S in the VLS but it sounds like they are gonna hold off (officially) until the full ASM Competition starting in 2017.

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RE: Major USN v PLAN CV-based scenarios? - 1/5/2015 7:00:05 PM

magi

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Joined: 2/1/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

As a balancing feature, you could maybe give the PLAN support from shore-based aircrafts, such as H-6 series of AShM bombers (equipped with the long ranged YJ-12, for example), as well as AEW&C and jammers (Y-8G stand-off ECM jamming plane). Another flight or even a regiment of 24 J-11BH or Su-30MK2 naval Flankers would also even the odds out, and look more realistic in a military stand-point, as China would hardly challenge the USN out in the open ocean, but keep themselves close to their shores, benefitting from all sorts of land based supports.

I do believe� Hongjian has the key to the foundation of building scenarios in this region� That it is based on Chinese aspiration and doctrine of.. National defense� Sea denial... Sea control.... I believe it would be a design essentially similar to what the Soviets had during the cold war.....

They have made clear interest� Of some of their desires in the South China Sea and for Taiwan� So this is easily a realistic impetus for the designing scenarios based on China's possible implementation to prevail in these areas..... And I believe our Navy is certainly considering counters to these desires�

There are a number of different directions this scenario theme can take....... Which makes it all the more interesting�.
One is that they will develop the assets and technology to prosecute these ambitions if they so desire.....
However� What if Russia and China formed an economic cooperative� It seems a bit of a stretch but strategic needs make real bedfellows�...
Chinese could get it strategic materials and energy resources from Russia via Overland routes� Russia would benefit from badly needed revenue and be less dependent on European markets�
What if in the future they had mutual defense agreements� That would be very interesting�
What if the rest of the region and India formed in alliance to counter the China Russia economic and military cooperative�
Comand/CMANO platform is an excellent tool to see.. test how these developments could take place in the military spectrum�

And... Poaw ..... "Play the fool" is one of my favorites scenarios that I have played� I would really like it if you would develop it further� As it is it is a good lesson in opposing capabilities�

< Message edited by magi -- 1/5/2015 8:03:59 PM >

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Post #: 13