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Sighting distance and ai surrender

 
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Sighting distance and ai surrender - 4/5/2001 4:15:00 AM   
john g

 

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline 		Perhaps someone else has noticed this and can explain what is going on. I set up a test scenario to see which was the best towed AT gun of 1943, the 88flakAT or the 17 pdr AT gun. Using the same starting positions for them and their targets the results of the test should have pointed out a winner. Strangely, the test just gave me new questions to ponder. The 88's were able to see and fire further than the 17pdrs even when they were given the same crew experiance and officer ratings, is there a modification to the sighting distance for a unit based on its rangefinder value or fire control value? Or perhaps a larger gun (sitting higher off the ground) has a larger visual horizon? The other puzzling aspect of the test was the point values at which the opposing force surrendered. The defending AT guns were about 1000 points, all bought from the German list; the attacking force was approx 9000 points of T34 m42's. The Soviet side surrendered with as few as 4 tanks destroyed and always surrendered to the 88's with fewer losses. The scores of the 88's ranged from about 440-120 to 1600-280 while the scores of the 17pdrs were more like 2500-600 to 4400-800. Is there a built in psychological test in the ai to cause it to surrender when it knows it is clearly just there getting slaughtered? Why would it surrender when it has only lost 4 tanks out of nearly 4 regiments? In back of the AT guns were neutral vp hexes totalling 750 points set as the movement objective of the Soviet side, but they never continued the game long enough to make it there. When I set up the test I assumed the 9-1 advantage would give the Soviets enough tanks to blow through the AT gun line and destroy all the guns, unfortunately they don't continue past about 13 tank losses to the 88's or 30 lost to the 17pdrs with even lower losses in some of the battles. At least some of the AT guns survived all the battles. If anyone has any answers, I would be glad to hear them. It has me stumped as to which towed AT gun rules 1943. thanks, John. :confused:

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- 4/5/2001 4:52:00 AM   
Antonius

 

Posts: 209
Joined: 6/6/2000
From: Saint Arnoult en Yvelines FRANCE
Status: offline 		I have always assumed the AI surrenders when a given fraction of its units is destroyed or routed AND it controls no victory hexes. As units can retreat/rout because other units in the same formation are destroyed, especially when it happens in the same turn, your AT guns can in effect rout the entire ennemy force by taking out a fraction only of the attacking tanks. If you want your test to last longer, you should give the AI one vicory hex from the start so it won't surrender.

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- 4/7/2001 2:08:00 AM   
john g

 

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Antonius: I have always assumed the AI surrenders when a given fraction of its units is destroyed or routed AND it controls no victory hexes. As units can retreat/rout because other units in the same formation are destroyed, especially when it happens in the same turn, your AT guns can in effect rout the entire ennemy force by taking out a fraction only of the attacking tanks. If you want your test to last longer, you should give the AI one vicory hex from the start so it won't surrender.
With losses as few as 4 tanks out of almost 4 regiments? I know from experiance that the ai will surrender when it has broken and has no victory hexes, but I always thought the break point was 75% losses. Here are some of the scores the at guns acheived. 88 flak AT 1660-189 495-136 1668-532 930-191 1421-273 1515-336 1454-137 1167-286 1527-206 1408-126 17pdr AT guns 3132-844 3125-656 2698-559 1922-832 4487-515 Based on these numbers the 88 flak is the better AT gun, it managed decisive victories several times when the 17pdr never did. The primary differance is lower number of guns killed due to the larger crew size, several of the 88's were down to 3-4 crew when the Soviets surrendered, a 17pdr would have been destroyed if it lost that many crew. This resolves nothing about the ability of the 88 to spot enemy units further away with identical crew. thanks, John.

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- 4/7/2001 4:16:00 AM   
ZinZan

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 12/9/2000
From: Leicester, England
Status: offline 		Unless spotting distance is based on number of crewmembers; that would mean a higher vhance of seeing at greater range. This would make sense (of a sort).

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ZinZan <br/> Peace is an extension of war by political means. Plenty of elbow room is pleasanter - and much safer. <br/> Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love by Robert Heinlein.

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Post #: 4
- 4/7/2001 4:40:00 AM   
Redleg


Posts: 1805
Joined: 5/23/2000
Status: offline 		To a certain extent, you were also testing German troops against British troops unless you had crewed both guns with troopers of one nation or the other. Surrendering is also affected by the quality of the troops concerned.

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Post #: 5
- 4/7/2001 10:28:00 AM   
McGib

 

Posts: 395
Joined: 6/26/2000
From: Ontario Canada
Status: offline 		Dont quote me on this but I believe that the AI will also surrender when/if a certain percentage of units are routed/retreating. Next time you try the 88's try another country, even fellow germans.

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- 4/8/2001 3:39:00 AM   
john g

 

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Redleg: To a certain extent, you were also testing German troops against British troops unless you had crewed both guns with troopers of one nation or the other. Surrendering is also affected by the quality of the troops concerned.
The At guns were all bought from the German list with a German A0 unit. I even went so far as to edit all the exp and leaders the same, and another time used the change unit to another type in the deploy screen so that the units would be the same. My next test is to start messing with the 17pdrs rangefinder and fc to see if that is what is allowing the 88 flak to see further. thanks, john.

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Post #: 7
- 4/8/2001 3:45:00 AM   
john g

 

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by McGib: Dont quote me on this but I believe that the AI will also surrender when/if a certain percentage of units are routed/retreating. Next time you try the 88's try another country, even fellow germans.
Since I set this up as a scenario instead of a quick battle, the at guns were always fighting the exact same opfor. The Soviet 43 army should not be surrendering at less than 20% losses like it was here. thanks, John.

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Post #: 8
- 4/8/2001 3:57:00 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		Send me your test scenario and I will see if I can figure it out

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Post #: 9
- 4/8/2001 11:59:00 PM   
Spike

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 3/1/2001
From: Buffalo, NY, USA
Status: offline 		Hmm, I did a similar test just with 88s vs T34s after reading this and the Soviets won rather handedly at 7-1 odds.. (alot less points though, which may make all the difference) I'm not sure these tests will be worth anything soon though.. once 5.0 is out the special opfire will be changed a bit, and large attacks should work a bit better. No problems surrendering either.. just follow the advice from Antonius and give them a victory hex at the beginning.. also you may want to make the VH's higher valued, I always assumed the AI wasn't willing to lose tons of equipment unless the VH's were worth more than what they lost. (hopefully that was clear!) :)

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Post #: 10
- 4/9/2001 12:45:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		The advice of Antonius is probably the best way to handle it. I've begun assigning one victory hex to the AI, setting it a 20 points and causing it to be "hidden" in a corner until the last turn of the scenario. This seems to keep the battle going to the end. This is a long standing problem stemming back to SP3 and it has never been corrected...WB

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