Naive question about sub attack tactics

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Naive question about sub attack tactics - 1/13/2016 7:24:02 PM

jwolf

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What determines when a sub attacks from the surface, and is there any way to stop it? I'm a bit frustrated with some of the Allied sub captains who do this, getting into a gunfire contest with a Japanese freighter on more or less equal terms when my sub is a lot more valuable. I can sort of excuse this for the main American subs in 1942 with their poor quality torpedoes, but it's maddening when a Dutch sub does this, not even trying to launch a torpedo but relying on the deck gun (granted in some cases they shoot both). Even worse, on one occasion the sub attacked from the surface -- not with fish, nor with the main gun, though it had plenty of ammo for both -- but strafed the enemy ship with its machine gun while taking 8 cm shells in response!

Is it possible to fine tune these things, or does one simply roll the dice with the virtual captain's choice?

Post #: 1

RE: Naive question about sub attack tactics - 1/13/2016 7:51:16 PM

Jorge_Stanbury

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This needs to be a captain choice. I would think the more aggressive the captain, the bigger the chances of surface combat.

(in reply to jwolf)

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RE: Naive question about sub attack tactics - 1/13/2016 9:32:52 PM

jmalter

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I've read on these forums, that a sub captain's NavSkill should be greater than his Agression. Of course that's not always possible! In my current game, available Dutch captains aren't all that great.

Surfaced sub attacks are fairly common, I think the engagement range is subject to game-engine randomization. The bright side is, that IJ 8cm gun will only rarely put a dangerously nasty hit on an Allied sub.

You've also got to keep an eye on each sub's ammo-level, they'll remain on patrol w/ insufficient torp/gun ammo. Subs w/ less than 33% ammo (especially if all front-facing tubes are expended) should return to base for re-supply.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)

Post #: 3

RE: Naive question about sub attack tactics - 1/13/2016 10:15:52 PM

jcjordan

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I've noticed also that in mid/late game when the Allied subs have radar/guns they start to attack more frequently on the surface using both types of weapons. If out of torps it will get in a gunfight so that must be watched for as well.

(in reply to jmalter)

Post #: 4

RE: Naive question about sub attack tactics - 1/14/2016 3:32:41 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

What determines when a sub attacks from the surface, and is there any way to stop it? I'm a bit frustrated with some of the Allied sub captains who do this, getting into a gunfire contest with a Japanese freighter on more or less equal terms when my sub is a lot more valuable. I can sort of excuse this for the main American subs in 1942 with their poor quality torpedoes, but it's maddening when a Dutch sub does this, not even trying to launch a torpedo but relying on the deck gun (granted in some cases they shoot both). Even worse, on one occasion the sub attacked from the surface -- not with fish, nor with the main gun, though it had plenty of ammo for both -- but strafed the enemy ship with its machine gun while taking 8 cm shells in response!

Is it possible to fine tune these things, or does one simply roll the dice with the virtual captain's choice?

You can't stop it.

Being "aggressive" is not per se the trigger for attacking on the surface.

A sub TF will attack submerged if there are combat ships in the enemy TF. It may attack on the surface when it considers the danger to itself to be minimal. Minimal danger usually requires no combat ships in the enemy TF. If short on torpedoes a sub TF led by an aggressive commander is more likely to prosecute an attack on the surface against unescorted enemy task forces.

This is in keeping with historical practice where most sub attacks against merchantmen were conducted on the surface.

Alfred

(in reply to jwolf)

Post #: 5

RE: Naive question about sub attack tactics - 1/14/2016 11:10:18 AM

Denniss

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But they shouldn't close-in to use their MGs or AA guns instead of deck gun. No sub captain, even the dumbest one, would try to sink a possibly armed freighter with MGs or small caliber cannon fire.

(in reply to Alfred)

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RE: Naive question about sub attack tactics - 1/14/2016 7:10:39 PM

pontiouspilot

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I wished my useless captains knew they had a deck gun!!

As King Alfred stated the surface actions mirror historical reality. Rather than waste a precious torpedo a deck gun would be used whenever it could be.

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Post #: 7

RE: Naive question about sub attack tactics - 1/14/2016 7:24:31 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

But they shouldn't close-in to use their MGs or AA guns instead of deck gun. No sub captain, even the dumbest one, would try to sink a possibly armed freighter with MGs or small caliber cannon fire.

That equally applies to surface combat between capital ships and their escorts.

In AE naval combat any naval weapon which is in range of the enemy can participate in combat. The algorithms take into account the different weapon types in determining damage/effectiveness but they don't prevent their participation if within range. PT boats firing their machine guns against a capital ship is no less an abstraction than subs on the surface firing any deck weapons against merchantmen.

Alfred

(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 8

RE: Naive question about sub attack tactics - 1/14/2016 7:30:54 PM

BBfanboy

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I think historically sub captains liked to use their MGs to try keep the enemy crew away from their guns and to sweep the bridge to keep the Captain from seeing the sub's maneuvers. The sub had to be quite close to hit with the deck gun because of rolling, pitching and target maneuvers. Most of this I took from books like "War Fish" by Grider and Sims and several others.

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(in reply to Alfred)

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RE: Naive question about sub attack tactics - 1/14/2016 7:49:00 PM

jwolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I think historically sub captains liked to use their MGs to try keep the enemy crew away from their guns and to sweep the bridge to keep the Captain from seeing the sub's maneuvers.

Fair enough -- but is this reflected in the game? Or is the effect of a sub's MG just small "shell hits" on the target?

Edit: BTW I very much appreciate all the comments in this thread, good helpful discussion.

< Message edited by jwolf -- 1/14/2016 8:49:49 PM >

(in reply to BBfanboy)

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RE: Naive question about sub attack tactics - 1/14/2016 8:15:09 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I think historically sub captains liked to use their MGs to try keep the enemy crew away from their guns and to sweep the bridge to keep the Captain from seeing the sub's maneuvers.

Fair enough -- but is this reflected in the game? Or is the effect of a sub's MG just small "shell hits" on the target?

Edit: BTW I very much appreciate all the comments in this thread, good helpful discussion.

I don't know about any effects beyond the damage of the small MG bullets and the rare "explosion" or fire effect they sometimes cause.

My main complaint about the sub vs. xAK type battles is that the xAK is too accurate with their gun given the small, moving sub target, lack of rangefinding equipment, usual night conditions, and little actual experience in the crew firing the xAK deck gun. Multiple xAK deck gun hits virtually never occurred. AKs and APs had naval crews and better equipment so they should shoot better than xAKs/xAPs.

I have no complaints about the xAK MGs hitting the sub fairly often.

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Post #: 11

RE: Naive question about sub attack tactics - 1/14/2016 8:34:46 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I think historically sub captains liked to use their MGs to try keep the enemy crew away from their guns and to sweep the bridge to keep the Captain from seeing the sub's maneuvers.

Fair enough -- but is this reflected in the game? Or is the effect of a sub's MG just small "shell hits" on the target?

Edit: BTW I very much appreciate all the comments in this thread, good helpful discussion.

The game is full of abstractions. Of course it is not exactly represented in the game; there is no ship crew to keep away from manning the defences.

If the pen value of a naval weapon is less than the armour it is shooting against, there is no penetration and all you get are shell hits which can cause system damage and if lucky fires. This applies to all naval weapons not just machine guns.

Really this is much ado about nothing.

Alfred

(in reply to jwolf)

Post #: 12

RE: Naive question about sub attack tactics - 1/14/2016 11:23:05 PM

jwolf

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Well in my latest turn against the AI one of my regular American subs attacked a Japanese barge on the surface with its MG. The poor barge was torn apart with explosions (!!) recorded both on and below deck. Finally the sub captain ordered the deck gun to fire -- and one 4 in shell obliterated the barge and put it out of its misery.

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 13

RE: Naive question about sub attack tactics - 1/15/2016 2:15:22 PM

crsutton

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Surface attacks are more likely to take place early in the war against un escorted ships or barges. I have noticed that they have all but disappeared in my campaign by mid 1943. But my opponent uses escorts so your experience may vary especially if you are playing the AI. Many merchants early in the war do not carry deck guns but that changes as the war progresses. I had an American sub surface and attack a lone merchant with its guns and fire off "all" of its torpedoes-all of which failed to hit or explode.....Funny to watch but not out of the real of possibility.

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RE: Naive question about sub attack tactics - 1/15/2016 5:48:25 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Surface attacks are more likely to take place early in the war against un escorted ships or barges. I have noticed that they have all but disappeared in my campaign by mid 1943. But my opponent uses escorts so your experience may vary especially if you are playing the AI. Many merchants early in the war do not carry deck guns but that changes as the war progresses. I had an American sub surface and attack a lone merchant with its guns and fire off "all" of its torpedoes-all of which failed to hit or explode.....Funny to watch but not out of the real of possibility.

I think Bullwinkle has managed only 1 surface attack in over 2 years of war. The reason is that I always, always, always have escorts. Even a single PB Maru (or, for the Allies, a YMS) will keep the sub to submerged attacks only.

He might have had 2. I think 1 might have been the result of the escorting ship being sunk just prior to the surface attack.

As the Allies, I'm still getting surface attacks in late 1944. I think it depends purely on aggression rating and whether or not the target is escorted.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 15