How does one even plan Japanese air production with PDU off?

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How does one even plan Japanese air production with PDU... - 8/3/2016 4:15:50 PM

Anachro

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Hello guys,

I come to you with a sense of remorse, repentance, and, indeed, dread. When I first started playing PBEMs, I'd demand my Japanese opponents play with PDU on, not realizing just how much of a headache it is for planning production. Now that a Japan PBEM of mine I thought long dead has started again and I find myself trying to re-organize it with better experience, I'm coming face-to-face with my mistake of wanting to do PDU off as Japan.

It's a mess. It's horrifying...it's chaos. Fighter groups of the same types going down different upgrade paths...how does one plan for this?

Any suggestions of tips? Even better, any primers in existence on the forums for Japan PDU off air production?

Post #: 1

RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/3/2016 4:32:49 PM

BBfanboy

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I have no experience playing Japan, but not long ago I think one of the JFBs posted a summary of the upgrades one should aim for and the production that should be arranged for each. Try searching Japanese aircraft production in this game via google.

Otherwise, Pax Mondo and Mike Soli seem to have the Japanese economy thing mastered so you could PM them.

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Post #: 2

RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/3/2016 4:37:25 PM

SheperdN7

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From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
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A lot of thought has to be put into not only what each squadron upgrades into but also what type of aircraft you recieve in "group reinforcements". Take a look there and you will notice that a lot of squadrons are: Oscars, Zeros, Tony's and Betty's. Unfortunately by seeing that there are only 1 or 2 ( or even 0??!) Tojo squadrons that come into play, the need for Tojo's is very low to say the least. I can help you though by saying that most of the DB squadrons can upgrade into the D4Y3 Judy, almost all naval fighter squadrons upgrade into the A7M Sam.

My only advice that I can give you is Oscars. Lots of them. As you know, I don't really do a lot of PDU off games and I'm glad you now know the reason for this

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/3/2016 4:39:58 PM

SheperdN7

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I agree with BBFanboy, Pax is pretty experienced with all aspects of the Japanese. Keep in mind I believe he only plays against the AI so be aware that even though an aircraft works against ai tactics, no guarantee it'll work against humans.

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/3/2016 4:51:19 PM

geofflambert

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A lot of players run down the Oscar. I have a lot of respect for them, especially beginning with the Ki-43-IIa which can deliver 2 250kg bombs. Those can sink ships if you train the pilots for that.

edit: a note on that. IJN pilots (crews) will always be in desperately short supply. IJA pilots not so much, not nearly so much. Any time you have an IJA squadron that can do IJN work, do it. I mean ASW, naval search and naval attack.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 8/3/2016 4:57:34 PM >

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/3/2016 5:13:48 PM

geofflambert

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Let me say another thing. I don't know why people want to play with PDU off. I'm all for historicity, and that's why I'm only interested at this time in playing DBB-C. But why should you tie one arm behind your back to do something stupid the Japanese did historically but weren't compelled to by the facts in play? If you go to the trouble of playing the J against a competent opponent, you are going to lose in the end. If anyone needs to tie their arm behind their back it is the Allied player, (but don't do that either).

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/3/2016 5:55:26 PM

oaltinyay

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Dont do Ki-61 at all.

Produce only Helen ( and Helen derivative ) for Bombers and Land Transport Units

Switch all Light Level Bombers to Ki45s and train them as Low Level Naval Attackers.

Kate over Jill.

Produce only 1 type for each category. Optimizing on using same engines for both Navy and Army.

Those are my points.

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/3/2016 6:02:20 PM

Jorge_Stanbury

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PDU-OFF planning is actually easy.. just mass produce what was used historically: which means Zero, Oscar, Frank, Betty, Lilly, Sally, Sonia lines

you will still want to produce the other, exotic, airplanes, but in a lot less quantity and without a major effort in acceleration

Most of the upgrade paths tend to follow the same model: if you start with Oscar, you might continue with it until Frank. Tracker definitively help

To Oaltinay: I think your advice is relevant for PDU-ON

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 8/3/2016 6:06:26 PM >

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/3/2016 7:31:23 PM

Encircled

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Kate over Jill?

Not sure about that to be honest.

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/3/2016 7:33:43 PM

Lowpe

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Research fighters....research means 3 or more size 30 factories in r&d.

Zero Line

Oscar Line

Frank, Frank Frank. Frank, frank and more Frank. and then even more Frank.

Tony line...ultimately 10 squadrons fly the 100I and 100II. Watch the plane upgrade path as it isn't a straight line early on.

Sam, Sam, and Sam.

Ki94II can be added in 43 if you are doing well as the Oscar and Zero line run their course.

Nothing else is worth building 3 set of 30 r&d facilities or more for. Build them to production levels instead.

Lilly divebombers can be fielded in large numbers...

Learn to love the Sonia! I do!

Since you aren't r&d a lot of other plane models you can go for the Frank B too, but just barely.

Judy is the only other plane worth r&d, 2nd Jill too I guess.

Remember my definition of research. A lot of the end war kamikazes are simply jokes, unable to be fielded in regular squadrons. Watch out!

Oops, I left out the Tojo line...just barely worth 3 r&d facilities. 6 squadrons by the time you get the 2nd version,

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 8/3/2016 7:35:59 PM >

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/3/2016 8:35:50 PM

geofflambert

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I guess I had bad luck with the Tony, it did not perform well for me even though I put the best available pilots in them. Its lack of range with the Ha-60 engine, compared with the Tojo, whose range is disappointing to say the least, doesn't justify its existence to me. I had a squadron with pilots with 70+ skill levels and assigned it an airbase to defend, that's all, it got chewed to pieces. I was stunned. I had Tojo squadrons sweeping the skies over enemy airbases with success and these Tonys couldn't defend themselves. Like I say, probably just bad luck, I can't explain it any other way, but the next time I played the Japanese side I xed them out and didn't build any.

(in reply to Lowpe)

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/3/2016 8:37:35 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Kate over Jill?

Not sure about that to be honest.

Some of the squadrons stop at Kate.

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/3/2016 8:44:57 PM

geofflambert

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One thing about the Tony is it has an armored cockpit. My gut instinct in regards to Tony is if you want to protect your pilots leave them on the ground.

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/3/2016 8:48:03 PM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Kate over Jill?

Not sure about that to be honest.

Some of the squadrons stop at Kate.

Sometimes all the IJN aircraft carriers stop at Kate too.

Kates don't operate well from under the sea though. Haven't tried Jills out in that role.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/3/2016 8:49:45 PM

Encircled

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On your carriers?

quote:

ote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Kate over Jill?

Not sure about that to be honest.

Some of the squadrons stop at Kate.

On your carriers?

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/4/2016 12:08:26 AM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

On your carriers?
quote:

ote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Kate over Jill?

Not sure about that to be honest.

Some of the squadrons stop at Kate.

On your carriers?

Nope, those go all the way through the Grace.

The LBA squadrons - I think some of those stop at Kate.

(in reply to Encircled)

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/4/2016 2:16:01 AM

PaxMondo

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IN PDU OFF, you may wish to ONLY RnD fighters. There are a host of reasons, but it boils down to fighter groups are some of the few that you can upgrade almost across the board, but only with a very few models.

IJN
Zero
Sam

IJA
Oscar
Frank

Do you build other models? YES. As they come available.
Why do you not RnD them? Two reasons:
1. Because to have any impact you need to put at least 3x30 factories on it and in production that is WAY too many for other models. You simply don't get enough groups that use those other models to have that much production on them.
2. Because if you REALLY focus on the above 4 models you can get those much EARLIER and MOST groups will upgrade to them. 12x30 on each of those 4 models will yield SPECTACULAR results that you need because all of those other wunder-models you will only get 1 or 2 groups that can ever use them.

Most of the models that you start in production with, you need to keep in production. Especially Nate. There are a few groups that never upgrade

and some that don't upgrade until 44/45. You want to know why I don't plan PDU OFF, this is why. I'm not prepared to fly Nates in '45 <period>. No interest. Zero. Nada.

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/4/2016 2:22:32 AM

PaxMondo

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Let me put a few more examples out there on this:

Sally v Helen. You have to build Sally almost the entire war as there are groups that don't upgrade until late. Yes, Helen has armor and this good, otherwise the two are similar. But, because you have no choice but to use Sally AND while many/most LB groups eventually allow upgrade to a Helen model, it is still a progression. You can choose to RnD Helen (one of the very few models outside of fighters that you will ever think about building more the 3x30 production), but 3x30 RnD only gets it for you a month or so early. So, I tend to NOT RnD it and save the supply for early campaigns, then in late spring '42 begin to build Helen factories which will come on line in Aug/Sept '42.

EDIT Note: Also, I have become more sanguine about armor for the IJ. Truth is, by April '42 my training plan has me with plenty of pilots. In my experience, my Helen losses are not noticeably different than Sally (I lose both in droves

), but my pilot pool is always fine. So, I'm not really as focused about getting Helen as I used to be. Yes, the extra hex is nice and in PDU ON I drop Sally like a cold.

bottom line: RnD in PDU OFF is easy. It hardly matters. PDU ON? Yeah, you really need to have a plan and execute to it.

EDIT2: Sheesh my spelling errors are terrible!

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 8/4/2016 3:07:17 AM >

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/4/2016 3:35:30 AM

geofflambert

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You could use Sally sqds. as trainers though I don't remember ever doing that. I even use Anns and Marys as ASW killers at choke points like the one between Taiwan and Luzon. I never figured out how or why I should discontinue the Sally. After about six months into the war, if you have to use Sallys where you should have been using Helens, you've been overusing your Helens. Stop doing that.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/4/2016 4:10:21 AM

rustysi

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quote:

I'm not prepared to fly Nates in '45 <period>. No interest. Zero. Nada.

I don't even like flying them in '42, although I must for a bit.

quote:

Yes, the extra hex is nice and in PDU ON I drop Sally like a cold.

Yeah, I dropped Sally too, she took it hard.

Edit:

quote:

PDU ON? Yeah, you really need to have a plan and execute to it.

Tell me about it, something I've worked on in my current game. I saved this as the last thing to learn. Took a good amount of time, and I have no idea if I'm anywhere close getting it correct. At least correct as I see it. I have some differences of opinion with many here, but to be honest that's all the time. IOW I'll make decisions on what feel will work or not for me.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 8/4/2016 4:16:17 AM >

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/4/2016 6:38:22 AM

oaltinyay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Kate over Jill?

Not sure about that to be honest.

Yes, I know there's a performance delta but given that it uses the Ha-35 which is used by many others I can live the sacrifice. I few more Torp hits dont make a difference but Economy will be better off. Besides u can use the qualitive edge of quantity :)

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/4/2016 6:39:57 AM

oaltinyay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

....

To Oaltinay: I think your advice is relevant for PDU-ON

Yeah - I guess. I was thinking about how to squeeze some mre points out of my island economy. It's late'43 and I'M already producing N1K2-j's but I am hard pressed for some land units.

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/4/2016 6:42:25 AM

oaltinyay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Research fighters....research means 3 or more size 30 factories in r&d.

Zero Line

Oscar Line

Frank, Frank Frank. Frank, frank and more Frank. and then even more Frank.

Tony line...ultimately 10 squadrons fly the 100I and 100II. Watch the plane upgrade path as it isn't a straight line early on.

Sam, Sam, and Sam.

Ki94II can be added in 43 if you are doing well as the Oscar and Zero line run their course.

Nothing else is worth building 3 set of 30 r&d facilities or more for. Build them to production levels instead.

Lilly divebombers can be fielded in large numbers...

Learn to love the Sonia! I do!

Since you aren't r&d a lot of other plane models you can go for the Frank B too, but just barely.

Judy is the only other plane worth r&d, 2nd Jill too I guess.

Remember my definition of research. A lot of the end war kamikazes are simply jokes, unable to be fielded in regular squadrons. Watch out!

Oops, I left out the Tojo line...just barely worth 3 r&d facilities. 6 squadrons by the time you get the 2nd version,

My Q's

1. Why produce Tony which needs an engine that's only used for that ? Produce Tojo's and accelarete R&D on Frank.

2. Lily Dive bombers ? Are they any good with those 100Kg bombs ? They wont even penetrate ?

3. Is there really that big of a difference between Jill and Kate ? Kate can also carry a MAD ?

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/4/2016 6:43:01 AM

oaltinyay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I guess I had bad luck with the Tony, it did not perform well for me even though I put the best available pilots in them. Its lack of range with the Ha-60 engine, compared with the Tojo, whose range is disappointing to say the least, doesn't justify its existence to me. I had a squadron with pilots with 70+ skill levels and assigned it an airbase to defend, that's all, it got chewed to pieces. I was stunned. I had Tojo squadrons sweeping the skies over enemy airbases with success and these Tonys couldn't defend themselves. Like I say, probably just bad luck, I can't explain it any other way, but the next time I played the Japanese side I xed them out and didn't build any.

Same as mine. Once u switch to Tony, u lose the initiative.

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/4/2016 6:44:06 AM

oaltinyay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Kate over Jill?

Not sure about that to be honest.

Some of the squadrons stop at Kate.

Besides they carry MAD gear and u can always throw more of them at the enemy. Ha35 is they key here I believe

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/4/2016 9:46:44 PM

rustysi

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quote:

It's late'43 and I'M already producing N1K2-j's but I am hard pressed for some land units.

By late '43 Japan should be getting quite a few land units. Enough... I don't know, but looking at the reinforcement schedule she seems to get a bunch. I'm talking stock scen1 here.

quote:

Kate can also carry a MAD ?

From what I've read MAD doesn't give very much of an edge, maybe 5%. I guess that's better than nothing though.

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/4/2016 11:24:56 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

It's late'43 and I'M already producing N1K2-j's but I am hard pressed for some land units.

By late '43 Japan should be getting quite a few land units. Enough... I don't know, but looking at the reinforcement schedule she seems to get a bunch. I'm talking stock scen1 here.

quote:

Kate can also carry a MAD ?

From what I've read MAD doesn't give very much of an edge, maybe 5%. I guess that's better than nothing though.

And nobody is clear on whether it's an additive or multiplicative 5%.

For the LCUs, there aren't THAT many until mid-late 1944. I guess there is an AF Bn Christmas sometime in 1943.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 8/4/2016 11:25:29 PM >

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/5/2016 12:10:22 AM

Anachro

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Thank you for all the replies, guys. They really help.

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
Let me say another thing. I don't know why people want to play with PDU off. I'm all for historicity, and that's why I'm only interested at this time in playing DBB-C. But why should you tie one arm behind your back to do something stupid the Japanese did historically but weren't compelled to by the facts in play? If you go to the trouble of playing the J against a competent opponent, you are going to lose in the end. If anyone needs to tie their arm behind their back it is the Allied player, (but don't do that either).

Now, I'm not taking issue with this opinion, but I want to present some food-for-thought. Regarding your first question as to why somebody would want to play with PDU off. I would argue that there is a very valid reason why you might "tie one arm behind your back;" and that is to see how much better or worse you could do than the actual Japanese did given the same aircraft models, etc. This is not pointless, but can be a rather interesting and fun exercise. Of course, much can depend on your opponent's performance too. Additionally, PDU off also means that the allied player must also follow historical upgrade paths. I believe some have stated before that the net benefit for the Allied player with PDU off is minimal at best when this is taken into account.

Second, I don't know if I can agree with your idea that it was stupid what the Japanese did historically. Rather, I think this opinion displays a bias that comes about through the benefits of hindsight regaridng what we know of what worked and didn't work. Indeed, it might be said that PDU on is an exploitation given this hindsight that allows the Japanese player to establish unrealistic streamlining of research and production that could not be recreated in the vacuum of reality even if the Japanese planners had might the "right" decisions. That is to say, even had the Japanese decided to not quite be so erratic in their production, the constraints of their existing technological and productive capabilities, the fog of the future and any requirements or hurdles it might bring, the lack of clarity on just what is optimal or best for a fighter plane, etc. - all these make it harder to decide what is really needed. I guess what I'm trying to say is that because we know what worked and what did not, we can shoot for the 100% best planes, whereas in reality even given the "right" productive decisions, you might only achieve 20-50%.

I hope that makes sense, because I was thinking as I was typing; and we all know how dangerous that can be.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/5/2016 12:28:34 AM

rustysi

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OK, but consider this, the US concentrated on only a few types of fighters and we had far more engineering and production capability than Japan and Germany combined. I'd say we got the cream of the crop, more or less (P-38, p-47, p-51, F6F, F4U). Had Japan streamlined her engineering and production efforts her outcome could have been at least somewhat better than her reality. I mean lets face it her efforts were pretty scattered, not to mention the overlap that often resulted in her research because of Army/Navy rivalry.

I don't like to put words in someone's mouth, but I think this may be what the gorn was driving at.

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RE: How does one even plan Japanese air production with... - 8/5/2016 12:37:19 AM

Anachro

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I agree, Rustyi. Streamlining would have been very beneficial and I'm not advocating for a scattered approach, but PDU On lets us streamline all the "right" stuff like Franks, etc. when in reality this probably would not have been the case even had the Japanese chosen to be less...erratic.

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