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CV complement? - 8/28/2016 7:03:20 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		How much anyone deals with CV complement. Fill them to the top from start?

I was reading Midway order of battle and was surprised how both sides were low specially the Japanese.

US was around 77 planes per CV.

Japan 74 for Kaga, 60! for Akagi, 57 for Hiryu and Soryu, all this included 21 land based Zeros.


Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midway_order_of_battle

< Message edited by Dili -- 8/28/2016 7:04:13 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: CV complement? - 8/28/2016 7:52:50 PM   
Korvar


Posts: 813
Joined: 9/3/2014
Status: offline 		Historically, the numbers are what one would expect and are even higher (USN) than usual - the carrier air group 'standard' complements at the time were as follows:

IJN:
21 Mitsubishi A6M 'Zero' Fighters
21 Aichi D3A 'Val' Dive-bombers
21 Nakajima B2N 'Kate' Torpedo-bombers

63 Total aircraft

Keep in mind that Kaga was a lot larger than Hiryu and Soryu - that's why they're a little low and Kaga's complement is 'oversized' compared to standard.


USN:
18 Grumman F4F Fighters (VF fighter squadron)
18 Douglas SBD Dive-bombers (VB dive-bomber 'attack' squadron)
18 Douglas SBD Dive-bombers (VS scouting squadron)
18 Douglas TBD Torpedo-bombers (VT torpedo 'attack' squadron)

72 total aircraft


The key difference in composition is that the IJN emphasized attack above all else, while the USN balanced the attack mission with scouting. This was intentional doctrine, as the USN knew the primary role for the carriers was to find and destroy enemy carriers. Wargaming with the Lexingtons in the '30s had proven to the USN that the side to discover their enemy first usually prevailed, as air attacks on carriers had a good chance to eliminate the possibility of counter attack. As a result, the SBD had been specifically designed to be both a good dive-bomber and scout, doctrine prescribed dedicated squadrons for each mission, and thus the VB and VS squadrons emphasized different missions but were used interchangeably for both as the need arose.

Torpedo planes were only there to attack battleships, as bombs were enough to damage but typically not sink a heavily armored target; otherwise, another SBD squadron would have taken the place of the TBDs. Keep in mind that many officers of both the IJN and USN thought that battleships were still the decisive force in a war, until the IJN advanced the USN to carrier-centric doctrine on Dec 7th.

< Message edited by Korvar -- 8/28/2016 8:19:57 PM >

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RE: CV complement? - 8/28/2016 8:12:36 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

How much anyone deals with CV complement. Fill them to the top from start?

I was reading Midway order of battle and was surprised how both sides were low specially the Japanese.

US was around 77 planes per CV.

Japan 74 for Kaga, 60! for Akagi, 57 for Hiryu and Soryu, all this included 21 land based Zeros.


Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midway_order_of_battle


Japanese industry was just not producing enough vals and kates to replace the losses of the early 1942 expansion. A lot of Japanese air units were worn out and under strength from constant action. If you look at the Allied replacement rates for around the battle of Midway in your game, you can understand the shortage of aircraft as well. As it was they had to scavenge a lot of Marine units to find more carrier fighters-leaving not quite a few of them stuck with Buffalos for a while longer.

One reason I try to avoid major carrier fights in 1942 is that win or lose it generally leaves my Allied carriers depleted of aircraft for months.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 8/28/2016 8:14:01 PM >

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RE: CV complement? - 8/28/2016 9:23:50 PM   
BBfanboy


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Joined: 8/4/2010
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Status: offline 		I think both sides also underestimated the ease with which bombers could penetrate CAP - later in the war the US put more fighters on their carriers and carried fewer DBs. I don't think the Japanese ever got enough fighters and trained pilots to increase their carrier complements much.

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RE: CV complement? - 8/28/2016 9:55:33 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
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Status: offline 		I never fail to complement any CV. CVLs not so much and CVEs not at all. I tell her how great her stern looks from behind. Stuff like that.

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RE: CV complement? - 8/28/2016 9:58:30 PM   
scout1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I never fail to complement any CV. CVLs not so much and CVEs not at all. I tell her how great her stern looks from behind. Stuff like that.


And how has that worked out for you ?

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RE: CV complement? - 8/29/2016 12:05:19 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
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Status: offline 		Usually, I just get brined in the face. One time, though, she let me grope her bilges. None of my friends ever got that far.

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RE: CV complement? - 8/29/2016 12:14:33 AM   
BBfanboy


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Status: offline 		Were those bilges freshly steam cleaned, or do gorns not care about such niceties?
How did you get past the arrester wires?

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RE: CV complement? - 8/29/2016 12:16:35 AM   
geofflambert


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Status: offline 		The dirtier the better. The arrester wires? Just give them a donut.

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RE: CV complement? - 8/29/2016 10:20:07 AM   
oaltinyay

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I never fail to complement any CV. CVLs not so much and CVEs not at all. I tell her how great her stern looks from behind. Stuff like that.


Does it work ? Extra missions ? More ammo in the mags ?

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RE: CV complement? - 8/29/2016 12:01:38 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I never fail to complement any CV. CVLs not so much and CVEs not at all. I tell her how great her stern looks from behind. Stuff like that.


Does it work ? Extra missions ? More ammo in the mags ?


Not without Viagra. I'm getting old, one mission is about it. Again, I'm getting old and it's not clear if my ammo is live.

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RE: CV complement? - 8/29/2016 3:11:13 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
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Status: offline 		For my American CVs, I place an 18 plane Marine fighter group on them ASAP. I want better "survivabilty" for '42. I sleep better having 45 fighters per CV. Once the fighter groups expand to 36 plane on July 1st, I take off my TBs (Avengers) and maybe divide them. So, I'm now up to 54 fighters and 36 DBs = 90 planes. I can now put on a small 5th group that can be a few CV capable recon or a few TBs and still below 99 planes.

Japan was short of Vals and Kates at Midway since they ran into problems with both their replacements - Judy and Jill that were to be in production by mid-42.

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RE: CV complement? - 8/29/2016 4:48:25 PM   
crsutton


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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

For my American CVs, I place an 18 plane Marine fighter group on them ASAP. I want better "survivabilty" for '42. I sleep better having 45 fighters per CV. Once the fighter groups expand to 36 plane on July 1st, I take off my TBs (Avengers) and maybe divide them. So, I'm now up to 54 fighters and 36 DBs = 90 planes. I can now put on a small 5th group that can be a few CV capable recon or a few TBs and still below 99 planes.

Japan was short of Vals and Kates at Midway since they ran into problems with both their replacements - Judy and Jill that were to be in production by mid-42.


My understanding is that they deliberately ramped down production of vals in expectation of the new Judys coming on line and the delays left a large gap.

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RE: CV complement? - 8/29/2016 5:14:41 PM   
geofflambert


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Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I agree that at least 50% of planes should be fighters (either side) and if you can put two sqds. on with one dedicated to CAP and the other doing CAP and Escort, I'd recommend doing that as well.

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RE: CV complement? - 8/29/2016 5:55:49 PM   
Macclan5


Posts: 1065
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From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

For my American CVs, I place an 18 plane Marine fighter group on them ASAP. I want better "survivabilty" for '42. I sleep better having 45 fighters per CV. Once the fighter groups expand to 36 plane on July 1st, I take off my TBs (Avengers) and maybe divide them. So, I'm now up to 54 fighters and 36 DBs = 90 planes. I can now put on a small 5th group that can be a few CV capable recon or a few TBs and still below 99 planes.

Japan was short of Vals and Kates at Midway since they ran into problems with both their replacements - Judy and Jill that were to be in production by mid-42.


My understanding is that they deliberately ramped down production of vals in expectation of the new Judys coming on line and the delays left a large gap.



+1

I am indeed learning /learned this as the best practice reading the AARs.

Even a Buffalo VMF squad can make a difference.

I hadn't considered phase 2 once the fighter squadrons resize. i.e. removing the TB Avengers.

This also sounds like very good advice albeit I guess the cost is RECOM.

The Avengers have been performing 2ndary mission Recon and at least against the AI they have been very effective.

Good defense / offense is also knowing when to fight and when to run away :)




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RE: CV complement? - 8/29/2016 6:14:54 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks everyone.

I think it was the B5N2 that had production stopped.

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RE: CV complement? - 8/29/2016 9:35:46 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

My understanding is that they deliberately ramped down production of vals in expectation of the new Judys coming on line and the delays left a large gap.


My opinion and practice are to be very careful about reducing, let alone eliminating, soon (hopefully) to be obsolete aircraft. Until the next model in line is in full production, and you are successfully converting squadrons, do not cease production of the older model. Rather reduce it as you are able, by converting one factory at a time, just make sure units still using the old model are fully supported with replacements. Any planes left over will make excellent trainers, ASW planes around major ports and, in the end Kamikaze aircraft. Do not make a judgement error in the wrong direction. Once you have converted one squadron to the new model and shown you are producing sufficient replacement aircraft for the squadrons using it, and producing a sufficient surplus to convert more squadrons, maintain your production of the old model.

edit: another consideration is how many engines you've built of the relevant type. Normally, but not in all cases, I would say it would be foolish not to build the most useful plane that requires engines you have in inventory, until that inventory is exhausted or nearly exhausted.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 8/29/2016 9:44:39 PM >

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RE: CV complement? - 8/29/2016 11:24:08 PM   
Encircled


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From: Northern England
Status: offline 		In my last game, I was down to six A6M2 in the pool, and had only just changed the Hiryu component to A6M3a.

I was being very, very, very careful with my production (PDU off) but I think I cut it just a bit too fine. :-)

My opponent quit thankfully!

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RE: CV complement? - 8/30/2016 12:46:45 AM   
geofflambert


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Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		In that case it is not a question of when to convert a factory (so much) as the A6M2 doesn't lead to the A6M3a. There's absolutely no excuse for premature discontinuation of the A6M2. It's quite possible that you'd be glad to have them in '44.

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RE: CV complement? - 8/30/2016 1:44:39 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Thanks everyone.

I think it was the B5N2 that had production stopped.

It was. That's why the scen 1 starts with no Kate production. You have to build a factory from scratch.

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RE: CV complement? - 8/30/2016 2:05:20 PM   
Encircled


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Status: offline 		Less you build of the A6M2, more you can build of better fighters late war Mr Gorn.

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RE: CV complement? - 8/30/2016 3:42:53 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

In my last game, I was down to six A6M2 in the pool, and had only just changed the Hiryu component to A6M3a.

I was being very, very, very careful with my production (PDU off) but I think I cut it just a bit too fine. :-)

My opponent quit thankfully!


Well having gone through one and a half campaigns as the Allied player, I can say that even up till mid 1944 Allied pools in most categories are almost always close to empty. I am in 9/43 in my current game and have no heavy or light bombers in the pools, no P47s, no hellcats, no corsairs, and no lightnings. I have about 100 P40s of all types and that is about it. Part of the problem is expansion but the main problem is the damn ETO. Somehow they think they get priority. On the bright side. I do have a very significant supply of Whirraways

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RE: CV complement? - 8/30/2016 4:08:54 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

In my last game, I was down to six A6M2 in the pool, and had only just changed the Hiryu component to A6M3a.

I was being very, very, very careful with my production (PDU off) but I think I cut it just a bit too fine. :-)

My opponent quit thankfully!


Well having gone through one and a half campaigns as the Allied player, I can say that even up till mid 1944 Allied pools in most categories are almost always close to empty. I am in 9/43 in my current game and have no heavy or light bombers in the pools, no P47s, no hellcats, no corsairs, and no lightnings. I have about 100 P40s of all types and that is about it. Part of the problem is expansion but the main problem is the damn ETO. Somehow they think they get priority. On the bright side. I do have a very significant supply of Whirraways

A wise player here came up with a use for the Whirraways - use them to haul beer kegs to the troops - morale and aggression go up immediately!

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RE: CV complement? - 8/30/2016 5:47:53 PM   
oaltinyay

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
...
Not without Viagra. I'm getting old, one mission is about it. Again, I'm getting old and it's not clear if my ammo is live.


Well, I doubt that Viagra - that wonderweapon -will work with you at all, you are cold-blooded reptilian. I cant possibly imagine what will move a Gorn apart from some redshirts ?

ps. I had written to Paramount after the re-boot, saying Gorn needs passing line if not a thread in a story line as one of the most understated races of canon. All I got was a thank you email - most probably automated.



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RE: CV complement? - 8/30/2016 6:10:32 PM   
oaltinyay

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

In my last game, I was down to six A6M2 in the pool, and had only just changed the Hiryu component to A6M3a.

I was being very, very, very careful with my production (PDU off) but I think I cut it just a bit too fine. :-)

My opponent quit thankfully!


Well having gone through one and a half campaigns as the Allied player, I can say that even up till mid 1944 Allied pools in most categories are almost always close to empty. I am in 9/43 in my current game and have no heavy or light bombers in the pools, no P47s, no hellcats, no corsairs, and no lightnings. I have about 100 P40s of all types and that is about it. Part of the problem is expansion but the main problem is the damn ETO. Somehow they think they get priority. On the bright side. I do have a very significant supply of Whirraways



Let me boast a little here , it's late '43, I have introduced N1K1-j2 in RA and most carriers fly that ( OK ok it's RA and not realistic but I made it ), Judy with lower Service rating has directly replaced Val Model 21 ( earlier one ), Jills from carriers and Kates. I have a stock of around 100 per each frame.

And the enemy is in PI !



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RE: CV complement? - 8/30/2016 7:59:30 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
There's absolutely no excuse for premature discontinuation of the A6M2. It's quite possible that you'd be glad to have them in '44.

Striving for the that early 500 Nakajima-35 can easily get you empty Zero pools in the beginning of 1942 if not careful. Then, double research rate to A6M5 is worth the risk

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RE: CV complement? - 8/30/2016 8:58:21 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Less you build of the A6M2, more you can build of better fighters late war Mr Gorn.


Less may be good but none is not unless you plan on not having any carriers or IJN fighter pilots.

edit: Let me clarify, once you are able to upgrade A6M2 sqds. by all means do so. But don't throw any of those A6M2s away that you have left.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 8/30/2016 9:02:09 PM >

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RE: CV complement? - 8/30/2016 9:25:48 PM   
oaltinyay

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Less you build of the A6M2, more you can build of better fighters late war Mr Gorn.


Less may be good but none is not unless you plan on not having any carriers or IJN fighter pilots.

edit: Let me clarify, once you are able to upgrade A6M2 sqds. by all means do so. But don't throw any of those A6M2s away that you have left.



I believe it was possible to field upgrade frames on the field for some planes. It should be added to the game maybe... just thinking.

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RE: CV complement? - 8/30/2016 9:37:05 PM   
Encircled


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Status: offline 		I had roughly 450+ in squadrons and on carriers, and would be upgrading them all to the A6M2a (those that could)

That would be have been more than adequate I reckon.

Still cut it too fine though

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RE: CV complement? - 8/31/2016 4:07:59 AM   
Alpha77

 

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Status: offline 		IJ CVs too weak - at least in PBM it seems. VS. AI ok. Better put another Zero on the CVs Unescorted raid would get through in my PBM.

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