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City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 3:10:57 PM   
dave sindel

 

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From: Millersburg, OH
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Good Sunday morning all,

Over the last couple of turns, I have concentrated air attacks on the refinery at Magwe. I have B-24's, B-26's, Blenheim's, A-24's, Vengeance I's involved, at several different attack altitudes. As yet, I have not observed a SINGLE hit on the refinery. Am I doing something wrong ? I set the groups to "city attack" and then select "Magwe", and then "refinery". Here's an excerpt from the combat report: TEN different attacks...... ZERO hits.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 28, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 29 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Allied aircraft
Vengeance I x 25
A-24 Banshee x 16

Allied aircraft losses
Vengeance I: 2 damaged
A-24 Banshee: 5 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Vengeance I releasing from 2000'
City Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb GP Bomb
3 x Vengeance I releasing from 4000'
City Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb GP Bomb
2 x A-24 Banshee releasing from 3000'
City Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
6 x A-24 Banshee releasing from 4000'
City Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
8 x Vengeance I releasing from 3000'
City Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb GP Bomb
8 x A-24 Banshee releasing from 2000'
City Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
4 x Vengeance I releasing from 4000'
City Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb GP Bomb
4 x Vengeance I releasing from 2000'
City Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 34 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Allied aircraft
Blenheim VD x 15

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x Blenheim VD bombing from 5000 feet
City Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 20 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 12

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Blenheim IV bombing from 3000 feet
City Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 3,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 10

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x Liberator II bombing from 4000 feet
City Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 33 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 10

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x Liberator II bombing from 4000 feet
City Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 33 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
A-24 Banshee x 15

Allied aircraft losses
A-24 Banshee: 4 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x A-24 Banshee releasing from 3000'
City Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
7 x A-24 Banshee releasing from 2000'
City Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
4 x A-24 Banshee releasing from 4000'
City Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 25 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 22

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 5000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 5000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 35 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-26 Marauder x 35

Allied aircraft losses
B-26 Marauder: 1 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x B-26 Marauder bombing from 3000 feet
City Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-26 Marauder bombing from 3000 feet
City Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-26 Marauder bombing from 3000 feet
City Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb


Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 27 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Allied aircraft
A-20A1 Havoc x 3

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x A-20A1 Havoc bombing and strafing from low level
City Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 31 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 12

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 5000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 23

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 5000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 5000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb





Post #: 1
RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 3:18:36 PM   
Yaab


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Maybe the refinery is already 100% disabled? Can you fly airfield or ground attack ission at the same altitudes and see if you score any hits?

< Message edited by Yaab -- 9/11/2016 3:20:50 PM >

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Post #: 2
RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 3:40:12 PM   
KenchiSulla


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What is the DL on target?

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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 4:19:55 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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As per Kamerad Holländer, what was the detection level and did you launch some pre-strike reece and after-strike reece? Could also be what Kapitan Kloss said, the refinery is already disabled/a heap of rubble.

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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 4:23:05 PM   
dave sindel

 

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From: Millersburg, OH
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Here's an information screen on Magwe. DL looks pretty good. Does the 2 (99) indicate 99% damage on the refinery ? I thought it was the other way around, only 2 damage. Airfield is 100% damaged




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 5
RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 4:26:38 PM   
Yaab


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2(99) means 2 refineries intact, 99 damaged. Your bombers try to hit the last two refinery... tanks? Derricks? Farms? I don't know.

And you whacked the airfield too - 100% damage. I wouldn't go to Magwe by land to liberate it. The locals may not be appreciative of your efforts.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 9/11/2016 4:29:14 PM >

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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 4:32:06 PM   
BillBrown


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It is not 99% but 99 refineries damaged. The mouse over always seems to add 1 to the total, so you are trying to damage a single oil refinery and that is hard.
I think it is time to move on with your bombing campaign.

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Post #: 7
RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 4:33:44 PM   
dave sindel

 

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From: Millersburg, OH
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Thanks @BillBrown and @Yaab. Yes indeed, time to focus on another target.

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Post #: 8
RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 4:40:43 PM   
Yaab


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Is this against the AI? The AI constantly rebuilds destroyed industry. That would explain why the refinery hasn't been totally destroyed yet. Otherwise, this seems like a bug.

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Post #: 9
RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 4:58:45 PM   
dave sindel

 

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From: Millersburg, OH
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PBEM game.

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Post #: 10
RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 5:10:22 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

It is not 99% but 99 refineries damaged. The mouse over always seems to add 1 to the total, so you are trying to damage a single oil refinery and that is hard.
I think it is time to move on with your bombing campaign.


BillBrown, why'd you shave off your beard?

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Post #: 11
RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 6:45:56 PM   
Shark7


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From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Is this against the AI? The AI constantly rebuilds destroyed industry. That would explain why the refinery hasn't been totally destroyed yet. Otherwise, this seems like a bug.


That would be my question too. I know as a IJN player I would go straight into that hex and turn of all repairs on industry, not worth the supply you'd spend to repair industry in a base that will be recaptured by the Allied player soon.

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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 7:54:31 PM   
BBfanboy


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Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Is this against the AI? The AI constantly rebuilds destroyed industry. That would explain why the refinery hasn't been totally destroyed yet. Otherwise, this seems like a bug.

Only fires will totally, permanently destroy industry, or the destruction caused by engineers when a base changes hands.
To get damaging fires you need to bomb Manpower and there has to be enough of that to create a firestorm that lasts for days.

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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 8:01:50 PM   
RagingKrikkit

 

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Joined: 10/19/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Is this against the AI? The AI constantly rebuilds destroyed industry. That would explain why the refinery hasn't been totally destroyed yet. Otherwise, this seems like a bug.

Only fires will totally, permanently destroy industry, or the destruction caused by engineers when a base changes hands.
To get damaging fires you need to bomb Manpower and there has to be enough of that to create a firestorm that lasts for days.


And personally, that's something I really don't like doing in occupied turf. Even if you don't have that particular qualm, population is reduced to 10% when a base is taken.

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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 8:48:33 PM   
Yaab


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From: Poland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Is this against the AI? The AI constantly rebuilds destroyed industry. That would explain why the refinery hasn't been totally destroyed yet. Otherwise, this seems like a bug.

Only fires will totally, permanently destroy industry, or the destruction caused by engineers when a base changes hands.
To get damaging fires you need to bomb Manpower and there has to be enough of that to create a firestorm that lasts for days.


Sorry, I meant damaged, not destroyed outright.

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Post #: 15
RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 8:51:44 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

It is not 99% but 99 refineries damaged. The mouse over always seems to add 1 to the total, so you are trying to damage a single oil refinery and that is hard.
I think it is time to move on with your bombing campaign.


BillBrown, why'd you shave off your beard?

I think it interfered with his .... other assets!

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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/11/2016 9:05:49 PM   
BillBrown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

It is not 99% but 99 refineries damaged. The mouse over always seems to add 1 to the total, so you are trying to damage a single oil refinery and that is hard.
I think it is time to move on with your bombing campaign.


BillBrown, why'd you shave off your beard?


I changed genders in my avatar.

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Post #: 17
RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/13/2016 4:04:38 AM   
crsutton


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And, bomb oil not refineries. Japan actually runs a surplus in refineries, not a bad target to hit but oil is better.

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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/13/2016 6:48:44 AM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

And, bomb oil not refineries. Japan actually runs a surplus in refineries, not a bad target to hit but oil is better.


Or just target everything but the light industry, its the one thing that can't be turned off, and will eventually eat up the dwindling resource stockpiles. And if playing as Japan, NEVER repair light industry that is damaged.

That's been my experience at least.

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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/13/2016 6:56:58 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Or just target everything but the light industry, its the one thing that can't be turned off, and will eventually eat up the dwindling resource stockpiles.

There is little point in strategically bombing anything other than oil (preferable) or heavy industry against Japan, unless on later stages and pummelling Home Islands. Resources are abundant in mainland Asia, refineries are in surplus, as crsutton noted, LI is hard to hit

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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/13/2016 1:09:15 PM   
dave sindel

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

And, bomb oil not refineries. Japan actually runs a surplus in refineries, not a bad target to hit but oil is better.


We have an HR to not bomb oil until 1-1-43. Well, the calendar just flipped and I turned the bombers loose on Magwe's oil this turn..

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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/13/2016 11:11:34 PM   
rustysi


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I haven't had much experience here as I've only played Japan as yet, but it seems to me that bombing manpower takes care of everything in the hex. No? I did it one game to Calcutta just to see what would happen. Everything was reduced when I checked, and believe me I didn't bomb much, only when my guys were just being cake eaters with nothing else to do would I send some to night bomb the place.

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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/14/2016 9:07:32 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dave sindel


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

And, bomb oil not refineries. Japan actually runs a surplus in refineries, not a bad target to hit but oil is better.


We have an HR to not bomb oil until 1-1-43. Well, the calendar just flipped and I turned the bombers loose on Magwe's oil this turn..


Actually, don't like this HR. I allows the Japanese player to leave his oil protection centers unprotected and move all of his fighters to the front lines. Really gives him a boost when he least needs it. A carrier raid on an oil production facility early in the game will serve to keep your opponent honest-even if you avoid bombing oil out of principal.

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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/15/2016 12:21:27 PM   
dave sindel

 

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From: Millersburg, OH
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: dave sindel


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

And, bomb oil not refineries. Japan actually runs a surplus in refineries, not a bad target to hit but oil is better.


We have an HR to not bomb oil until 1-1-43. Well, the calendar just flipped and I turned the bombers loose on Magwe's oil this turn..


Actually, don't like this HR. I allows the Japanese player to leave his oil protection centers unprotected and move all of his fighters to the front lines. Really gives him a boost when he least needs it. A carrier raid on an oil production facility early in the game will serve to keep your opponent honest-even if you avoid bombing oil out of principal.


This is my first PBEM game, and also my first campaign game. I had minimal experience with AE when I agreed to some of the HR that my opponent proposed. I won't do this again if I do another PBEM. I realize now that I took away some options for the Allies that I shouldnt have.

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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/30/2016 5:12:48 PM   
dave sindel

 

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Resurrecting this thread, with a request for some additional insights. I managed to pulverize Magwe, and then soon thereafter the base "switched sides" so now I get to repair all the damage I created. I have started using the B-24's to city attack Rangoon at night and have been focusing on "manpower" as my target. I've started some fires - but I'm wondering what damage those fires cause, and to what extent I need continue in order to create "industry destroying" fires? I looked in the manual, but couldnt find any description of fires or damage levels.

BBFanboy wrote this earlier in the thread.
[/quote]
Only fires will totally, permanently destroy industry, or the destruction caused by engineers when a base changes hands. To get damaging fires you need to bomb Manpower and there has to be enough of that to create a firestorm that lasts for days.
[/quote]

So, how much is enough ?

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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/30/2016 5:27:39 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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A firestorm takes really massive 4E effort. You almost certainly don't have it in this era. I don't know the numbers--don't know if any player really does--but I've had 150,000 fires and didn't get one.

Manpower will do damage, but it's pretty random and you can go a long time without seeing much. It doesn't do much to LI without a lot of bombs. It can hurt factories, but those are mostly in the HI. It's fairly good on HI, but don't expect miracles. Oil, if dense, I've always had more luck targeting directly, even at night. Fires can also take down some supply. But 4E strat bombing takes a lot of effort, supply, and av support. It's not a one-hit wonder.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 9/30/2016 5:28:45 PM >


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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/30/2016 5:35:04 PM   
dave sindel

 

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Thanks Moose. Your assumption is correct - I've got about 8 squadrons of B-24's available for this effort. I didnt notice much oil there, wouldnt that be affected by no oil flowing from Magwe now ?

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Post #: 27
RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/30/2016 6:31:28 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dave sindel

Thanks Moose. Your assumption is correct - I've got about 8 squadrons of B-24's available for this effort. I didnt notice much oil there, wouldnt that be affected by no oil flowing from Magwe now ?

Not sure what you are getting at here- Rangoon has no oil production to recon and if the enemy holds it you should not have any intel on the oil stocks.

What oil there was from Magwe can be sent to Moulmein by rail and then down the gray road to Tavoy or Mergui where it can trickle one hex through the jungle to Bangkok. Supply does this so I do not see why oil would not.

Re: the fire storms, I have achieved fires over 1 million (B-29s in the Downfall scenario) but they quickly die down to a few thousands that burn for days. This is where the industry damage seems to happen.
The alternative is to bomb each industry directly but the damage there is not permanent. It is limited to one point of repair per industry per day and uses 1000 supply for each, so later in the game it is pretty much the same as permanent damage. But early on the damage can be repaired.

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RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/30/2016 6:47:30 PM   
dave sindel

 

Posts: 488
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From: Millersburg, OH
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: dave sindel

Thanks Moose. Your assumption is correct - I've got about 8 squadrons of B-24's available for this effort. I didnt notice much oil there, wouldnt that be affected by no oil flowing from Magwe now ?

Not sure what you are getting at here- Rangoon has no oil production to recon and if the enemy holds it you should not have any intel on the oil stocks.

What oil there was from Magwe can be sent to Moulmein by rail and then down the gray road to Tavoy or Mergui where it can trickle one hex through the jungle to Bangkok. Supply does this so I do not see why oil would not.

Re: the fire storms, I have achieved fires over 1 million (B-29s in the Downfall scenario) but they quickly die down to a few thousands that burn for days. This is where the industry damage seems to happen.
The alternative is to bomb each industry directly but the damage there is not permanent. It is limited to one point of repair per industry per day and uses 1000 supply for each, so later in the game it is pretty much the same as permanent damage. But early on the damage can be repaired.


I thought that when I did a "mouseover" on Rangoon that I noticed "oil", but perhaps not. But if Rangoon has no oil production and Magwe is in Allied hands, there isnt any oil flowing out of Burma at all is there ?

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 29
RE: City Refinery Attack and zero hits ?? - 9/30/2016 7:00:59 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dave sindel


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: dave sindel

Thanks Moose. Your assumption is correct - I've got about 8 squadrons of B-24's available for this effort. I didnt notice much oil there, wouldnt that be affected by no oil flowing from Magwe now ?

Not sure what you are getting at here- Rangoon has no oil production to recon and if the enemy holds it you should not have any intel on the oil stocks.

What oil there was from Magwe can be sent to Moulmein by rail and then down the gray road to Tavoy or Mergui where it can trickle one hex through the jungle to Bangkok. Supply does this so I do not see why oil would not.

Re: the fire storms, I have achieved fires over 1 million (B-29s in the Downfall scenario) but they quickly die down to a few thousands that burn for days. This is where the industry damage seems to happen.
The alternative is to bomb each industry directly but the damage there is not permanent. It is limited to one point of repair per industry per day and uses 1000 supply for each, so later in the game it is pretty much the same as permanent damage. But early on the damage can be repaired.


I thought that when I did a "mouseover" on Rangoon that I noticed "oil", but perhaps not. But if Rangoon has no oil production and Magwe is in Allied hands, there isnt any oil flowing out of Burma at all is there ?



There's a little in Ledo I think. I think it's the only other except for Magwe, but I don't recall every base.

My comments above about bombing oil were in general, not Rangoon-specific.

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