Soviet traffic jams

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Soviet traffic jams - 9/24/2017 9:01:12 PM

ivanov

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I've noticed that there's no way that a Soviet tank company can move through a hex occupied by Soviet mechanized company. The tank unit just stops and doesn't try to find an alternative route. You can cross without any problems a hex occupied by a tank unit with an infantry or with a different tank unit. You can also move with an infantry through a hex occupied by another infantry unit. So what's the reason that a tank unit cannot go through a hex occupied by an infantry and in all other cases the units can cross? Is it a bug?

< Message edited by katukov -- 9/24/2017 10:28:20 PM >

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RE: Soviet traffic jams - 9/26/2017 12:16:40 AM

cbelva

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Can you post a saved game for us to look at. Thanks.

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RE: Soviet traffic jams - 9/26/2017 12:26:28 AM

ivanov

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It's very easy to replicate. Take head to head scenario Herd. As Soviets in the initial setup, order a mechanized infantry unit to move some short distance with a hold order at the end. Sent a tank unit along the same route but a bit further so it would cross the infantry position. The tank unit won't accomplish it, instead it will switch to hold before the hex occupied by the infantry.

< Message edited by katukov -- 9/26/2017 12:27:00 AM >

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RE: Soviet traffic jams - 9/26/2017 12:49:57 AM

Stimpak

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I've successfully replicated this three times. The Tank Company will suffer "movement delay" three times before reverting to a Screen or Hold.

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RE: Soviet traffic jams - 9/26/2017 10:36:16 AM

CapnDarwin

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From: Newark, OH
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This is an old bug popping back up. I will chat with Rob to see if this is a quick fix we can get into the hot fix we are working on. More of a warm fix now with the added looks and fixes.

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RE: Soviet traffic jams - 9/26/2017 11:03:29 PM

IronManBeta

Posts: 4132
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Burlington, Ontario
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Hi gents. I loaded up the 3rd Herd scenario and launched it as per Katukov and saw pretty quickly what is going on. It is actually playing as designed but you cannot really tell what is happening so I will spell it out.
1. The Soviet stacking limit is 35 subunits per hex as per the Soviet xls data file / National tab / Subunit Stacking Limit row.
2. The Soviet mech inf companies in this scenario each have 11 carriers and 12 passengers for a total of 23 subunits.
3. The Soviet tank companies are on the MRR establishment of 13 tanks per (vs 10 normally).
4. The stacking rule is that when a unit with carriers and passengers moves, only the carriers count towards stacking. When it stops everyone disembarks automatically as that is much safer.
5. So what is happening here is that the mech inf company travels as a stack of 11 but but when it reaches its destination it deploys and is a stack of 23. The tank unit of 13 makes 36 and that violates stacking. The tank company is stopped. Going the other way, the tank unit travels as 13 and stops as 13. The mech inf company travels as 11 and can easily pass through the stopped tank company.

6. So the bigger question is whether a deployed mech inf company in a 500m hex really should block a large tank company. I would think not on general principles but then maybe doctrine was against it too - who knows. I will confer with my colleagues and see what they say about this.

Thanks for spotting this!

We are always happy to explain.

Cheers, Rob C

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RE: Soviet traffic jams - 9/27/2017 10:32:23 PM

ivanov

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Thanks Rob for clarifying this. Your explanation makes sense however IMO in the real life, one dismounted infantry company shouldn't completely block the movement of other units through a hex. Wouldn't increasing the stacking limit be an easy solution to the problem? It would even make sense since the Soviets were moving in tighter formations than NATO units.

< Message edited by katukov -- 9/27/2017 10:36:47 PM >

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RE: Soviet traffic jams - 9/30/2017 6:40:57 PM

IronManBeta

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From: Burlington, Ontario
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Yes, now that I reread it I see that the issue really was that the tank unit was not repathing around the disembarked infantry. I will check that next!

Half an hour later.

yes, there were two conflicting pieces of code here that caused the tank unit to assume its terminal order once it got bogged down. It now paths around the infantry as expected. Watch for this in the hotfix release real soon.

< Message edited by RobertCrandall -- 9/30/2017 7:57:03 PM >

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RE: Soviet traffic jams - 10/1/2017 2:14:02 PM

pzgndr

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Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: katukov
order a mechanized infantry unit to move some short distance with a hold order at the end. Sent a tank unit along the same route but a bit further so it would cross the infantry position

Certainly a "passage of lines" exception should be made for units in transit passing through deployed units. The stacking limits for deployed units make sense, but there needs to be exceptions to move through rather than just move around. Just a thought.

Edit. In fairness, this is pretty complicated and depends on the status of the stationary unit (hold or screen) and the formation of the moving unit(s) (assault/deliberate/hasty). Trying to do an assault or deliberate move through a unit in a hold position would be nuts. In the example cited, moving infantry into a hold position and expecting an immediate passage of lines, even for a unit in hasty/march formation, would be challenging. Best course of action would be to avoid issuing orders like this that create traffic jams. The game could help when showing proposed movement routes to maybe identify potential chokepoints and bypass routes, and allow the player to reconsider orders?

< Message edited by pzgndr -- 10/2/2017 1:40:09 PM >

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Post #: 9