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Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/4/2018 7:32:43 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		The topic sorta came up on the "Resizing Thread" so as not to hijack that thread.

IIRC (haven't tried in a while) if you put (just for instance) VF6 (normally USS Enterprise), VS5 (normally USS Yorktown), VB8 (normally USS Hornet) and VT3 (normally USS Saratoga) on the same carrier the carrier will never launch all of them in the same strike and may not launch anything at all even though suitable targets are available.

I tried this some time ago (several patches ago, might even have been WitP) and found that the game didn't deal with it well. Just wondering if this is still true.
Post #: 1
RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/4/2018 8:57:46 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		I do not recall ever hearing the developers mention any such connection. AFAIK the squadron name is only a text name. There should be no difference due to that.

Obviously when you take historical squadrons (which the developers endeavored to give historical stats) and move them around as you have you will also move their stats and leaders with them. Hornet squadrons should be less experienced than the other carriers you mentioned, just for example.

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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/4/2018 9:18:58 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

The topic sorta came up on the "Resizing Thread" so as not to hijack that thread.

IIRC (haven't tried in a while) if you put (just for instance) VF6 (normally USS Enterprise), VS5 (normally USS Yorktown), VB8 (normally USS Hornet) and VT3 (normally USS Saratoga) on the same carrier the carrier will never launch all of them in the same strike and may not launch anything at all even though suitable targets are available.

I tried this some time ago (several patches ago, might even have been WitP) and found that the game didn't deal with it well. Just wondering if this is still true.

I have never been able to launch four squadrons in a single strike from one carrier. Just not enough ops points to do it in one phase, I think. The deck space does not allow for all those aircraft to be pre-spotted for takeoff and the elevators cannot keep up with the launch, so the first squadron launched would be burning gas for a long time waiting for the others.
I suspect weather can also lead to separation of the strike package before it gets formed up and thus some squadrons proceed ahead of others.

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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/4/2018 11:59:33 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Agree w/BBfanboy. The more authorities aboard a carrier the less efficient they will be. Don't do that (unless you feel like it).

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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/5/2018 1:24:41 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		I tried, many times in a row, to get additional strike aircraft to launch from KB for a non-historical first turn strike. I transferred LBA Kates to the carriers that had space for them. CVs can operate up to 5 air units at a time, however putting the 4th unit on there they did fly. Ever. I ran the turn (against computer, so it's re-seeding the random every time) multiple times. Not once did my previously-LBA Kates fly. Since then, I haven't messed around with putting addition units on CVs. Fighters seem to work, additional strike craft seem to not work.

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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/5/2018 6:44:20 AM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		Based on the my knowledge of the game engine it this mix should present absolutely no difference to having a regular home based squadrons on board.
Having VF-6/VS-5/VB-8/VT-3 aboard single carrier having the same "Independent" HQ would be subjected to the exactly same amount of rolls for launching and coordination as VF-6/VS-6/VB-6/VT-6 - that is Weather, DL of the target, TF Leader, unit leaders, experience, morale, aircraft performance, etc.
Same with having VF(C)-31, VT(C)-35, VMF-413 and VF-36 (first two from some CVE Composite group, Marine squadron and carrier squadron) aboard whatever fleet carrier.


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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/5/2018 11:57:59 AM   
Macclan5


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Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline 		The emphasis here seems to be on strike airframes if I understand correctly ?

I do know - have read many times in posts / AARs - that adding additional fighters to USN CVs for example is a good thing.

For example Saratoga (?) or Yorktown (?) start with a squadron of Buffalos in early 42. Most Allied players leave them aboard for additional CAP support until the Radar and F4F upgrades come along.

This is still valid ?



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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/5/2018 2:14:52 PM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		They would be on a high priority to be upgraded to F4Fs on their first visit to port.
But more common is that the players add a Marine fighter squadron aboard - or even land the Devastators for more room. So instead of the 24 VF+18 VS+18 VB+18 VT you will get 24VF + 18 VMF + 18 VS + 18 VB setup.

I can say I stayed with the standard carrier load all the way. Just switching the roles of DB and TB a little. Before Avangers are available the SBD Dauntless is your main scout, after the Avangers arrive (6/42?) it is good idea to switch for full DB offensive while TBs cover the search, asw and what is left can go on strike.

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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/5/2018 2:53:23 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

They would be on a high priority to be upgraded to F4Fs on their first visit to port.
But more common is that the players add a Marine fighter squadron aboard - or even land the Devastators for more room. So instead of the 24 VF+18 VS+18 VB+18 VT you will get 24VF + 18 VMF + 18 VS + 18 VB setup.

I can say I stayed with the standard carrier load all the way. Just switching the roles of DB and TB a little. Before Avangers are available the SBD Dauntless is your main scout, after the Avangers arrive (6/42?) it is good idea to switch for full DB offensive while TBs cover the search, asw and what is left can go on strike.

Interesting.

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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/5/2018 4:28:24 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Based on the my knowledge of the game engine it this mix should present absolutely no difference to having a regular home based squadrons on board.
Having VF-6/VS-5/VB-8/VT-3 aboard single carrier having the same "Independent" HQ would be subjected to the exactly same amount of rolls for launching and coordination as VF-6/VS-6/VB-6/VT-6 - that is Weather, DL of the target, TF Leader, unit leaders, experience, morale, aircraft performance, etc.
Same with having VF(C)-31, VT(C)-35, VMF-413 and VF-36 (first two from some CVE Composite group, Marine squadron and carrier squadron) aboard whatever fleet carrier.



I don't know why they wouldn't fly. I really don't.

I transferred a small (12?) plane Kate unit to the Akagi, since she starts with 18 Zeroes, 27 Vals, and 27 Kates (72 planes out of a capacity of 81). Adding 12 more to 84 planes is totally within CV operating parameters - she can (and in other situations does) conduct flight operations up to 89 planes onboard (later in the war, I've resized her air groups to a total of 85 and they fly just fine, thank you very much).

Maybe it had something to do with them being carrier capable, but not trained? I don't know. I swapped leaders. I swapped out pilots for pre-war elite pilots. I swapped out Akagi's CO. I swapped Nagumo for Yamaguchi. I don't know why they didn't fly in any of those situations.

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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/5/2018 4:44:41 PM   
Zecke


Posts: 1330
Joined: 1/15/2005
From: Hitoeton
Status: offline 		A ver...Iowan in Middle of December..i have done several times what you have done resizes the Akagi and had the same problem; didnt flight at first; the capability of a Cv is very serious cuestión; it depends on wich version you play, nothing to do with the CPT; maybe the mod or who Knows; but even the Cvls conversions japan have problems on WITP; finally 81 planes on Akagi flights if they fill on Osaka i might think or maybe in Tokyo but has to be some kind of conversion to flight 81 planes am not sure but try to docked and upgrade.. not sure at all but lets see if it works

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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/6/2018 5:05:01 PM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
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quote:

Fighters seem to work,


I can attest that this works.

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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/7/2018 4:08:07 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		IIRC Waaaaay back in the day...someone tried to replicate the time when that Brit CV joined the U.S. fleet at Noumea and was code-named "HMS Robin"..For maybe 2 weeks hey put all the TBF's from the local U.S. CV on it and moved the Brit fighters onto the U.S. CV..It did not work out so well and the planes went back to their owning ships.

The name of that thread may have been HMS Robin...or something along those lines?

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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/7/2018 5:44:22 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Never noticed a problem with this. I pretty much mix and match my squadrons and pay no attention to historical detail. But never have more than four on a carrier of any type. But I will put any carrier capable unit on a carrier and have not seen any drop off. I never exceed the total aircraft allowed (capacity)-even by a few aircraft. And never tried more than four squadrons on a CV.

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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/7/2018 6:12:01 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
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From: LI, NY
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quote:

I never exceed the total aircraft allowed (capacity)-even by a few aircraft.


I have. I've not noticed any detriment. By a few, I do really mean a few. No more than three.

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It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/7/2018 10:49:27 PM   
Rogue187

 

Posts: 146
Joined: 2/7/2005
Status: offline 		Spence, there used to be a bug with the original War in the Pacific that if you switched a squadron from carrier to carrier as you described the game had some issues with it. But I think that issue was resolved with the Admiral's Edition so you can move around squadrons from ship to ship without any problem.

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Post #: 16
RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/7/2018 10:50:32 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

I never exceed the total aircraft allowed (capacity)-even by a few aircraft.


I have. I've not noticed any detriment. By a few, I do really mean a few. No more than three.


You can go up to 10% higher with no penalty to operations (beyond not being able to absorb any stranded/orphaned planes from other decks being damaged).

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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/7/2018 11:04:19 PM   
Korvar


Posts: 813
Joined: 9/3/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

You can go up to 10% higher with no penalty to operations (beyond not being able to absorb any stranded/orphaned planes from other decks being damaged).



I think the limits are 115% max for normal ops (transfers still allowed above this), 110% max for recovery of stranded aircraft, and 5 air groups maximum.

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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/8/2018 1:32:42 AM   
Aurorus

 

Posts: 1314
Joined: 5/26/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I tried, many times in a row, to get additional strike aircraft to launch from KB for a non-historical first turn strike. I transferred LBA Kates to the carriers that had space for them. CVs can operate up to 5 air units at a time, however putting the 4th unit on there they did fly. Ever. I ran the turn (against computer, so it's re-seeding the random every time) multiple times. Not once did my previously-LBA Kates fly. Since then, I haven't messed around with putting addition units on CVs. Fighters seem to work, additional strike craft seem to not work.



The Pearl Harbor strike was "scripted" to some extent prior to the latest Beta in that the squadrons originally aboard the 6 CVs all coordinate and attack automatically. although altitude and target selection (port or airfield) is at the player discretion. Other squadrons are not part of this "script," which is why they did not participate. At least that is my impression of the Pearl attack, having experimented with it some 50 times. With the latest Beta, that "script" appears to have been removed, which is why we have begun to see some bizarre things happening on Pearl strikes in the more recent PBEMs: such as planes launching in the PM phase as well and the strike not being at full strength. The removal of that "script" has made the Pearl strike much less appealing, because now, often, all planes do not attack, owing to the air-coordination penalty for such a large CV group. What had always been an underwhelming attack is now more underwhelming. With DBB's less effective torpedos, the Pearl Harbor attack appears to be a waste of First Air Fleet in DBB.

As to putting additional bomber groups on CVs, I have experimented a little with this also to add additional ground-strike capability to KB supporting amphibious operations. The results are usually dissapointing. It seems to be rare for a CV to launch more than 2 squadrons of bombers in a single attack. Adding fighter squadrons to CVs, however, seems to work well.

< Message edited by Aurorus -- 1/8/2018 1:36:56 AM >

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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/8/2018 3:07:04 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		I don't think that's true about the PH attack squadrons automatically coordinating. Even over the years they sometimes haven't, so it wasn't something caused by the latest Beta.

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RE: Mixing squadrons on a carrier - 1/8/2018 2:14:45 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

With the latest Beta, that "script" appears to have been removed, which is why we have begun to see some bizarre things happening on Pearl strikes in the more recent PBEMs: such as planes launching in the PM phase as well and the strike not being at full strength.


While I've only launched one game so far with the latest beta, it hasn't been available that long, my PH attack seemed 'normal' to me.

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It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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