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OOBs for historical scenario design

 
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OOBs for historical scenario design - 2/20/2018 8:30:42 PM   
Spartan7

 

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Any interest in starting a thread for scenario designers to try and determine historical OOBs for scenario designers?

It always requires a bit of guess work but it is an interesting exercise.

Thoughts?
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RE: OOBs for historical scenario design - 2/20/2018 8:47:42 PM   
Jason Petho


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By all means! Please!

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RE: OOBs for historical scenario design - 2/20/2018 9:02:30 PM   
Spartan7

 

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Joined: 10/6/2017
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Willing to weigh in wherever needed.

Currently deep diving the Crossing scenarios from '73.

Have access to Hebrew to English translations on many (but not all) after action reports from Reshef's 14th Brigade
during the crossing. Details down to the individuals manning each vehicle in each company in each battalion but they are not complete.
Includes vehicle types and numbers. Too much fun.

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RE: OOBs for historical scenario design - 2/21/2018 8:30:31 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spartan7

Willing to weigh in wherever needed.

Currently deep diving the Crossing scenarios from '73.

Have access to Hebrew to English translations on many (but not all) after action reports from Reshef's 14th Brigade
during the crossing. Details down to the individuals manning each vehicle in each company in each battalion but they are not complete.
Includes vehicle types and numbers. Too much fun.

Gary

more than happy to assist you, too.

http://www.israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=5531
http://balagan.info/israeli-order-of-battle-in-the-1967-arab-israeli-war
https://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=4148
http://www.fireandfury.com/extra/ordersofbattle.shtml

Klink, Oberst

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RE: OOBs for historical scenario design - 2/24/2018 10:35:22 PM   
Spartan7

 

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Joined: 10/6/2017
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Starting to review the Chinese Farm 1 Scenario (The Most Terrible Night) focusing on the 14th Brigade
Sources:
"Crossing" by Ezov
IDF Historical Section (translated from Hebrew)
-14th Brigade After Action Reports
-Battalion After Action reports and OOB/TO&E reports
-Veteran/Survivor accounts
US Army Analysis of the Battle at Chinese Farm published at fort Leavenworth ~1978 (link to follow)
Gravonsky (translation of entire Israeli OOB in 1973 (Translated from Hebrew to Russian to English)

Again, my inputs in no way reflect on the excellent work of other scenario designers. Part of the enjoyment of playing these games is not only the "fun" and challenge of the games themselves but the recreation of the historical situation. So bear with me......

The scenario includes the "HaSinai" Battalion leading the 14th Brigade. I believe this is in error. This battalion consists of captured (in '67) BTRs and PT76 light amphibious tanks. The evidence that I have (from Gravonsky and the Afteraction reports) convinces me that this unit was the 88th Amphibious Battalion. This unit was stationed at Sharm el Sheik at the out break of the war and transferred first to Abu Tor on the west coast of the Sinai and then to Sharon's 143rd Division on 10/15. it participated in the final stages of the Chinese Farm fight (pictures from the AA reports dated 10/17 and 10/18 securing the Chinese Farms pump houses) and crossed to the west side of the canal on the roller bridge on 10/19. From a scenario perspective, I've moved it from the 14th Brigade and assigned it as a divisional asset to the 143rd Division. Its' stated TO&E at the time of its' crossing the bridge was 14 BTRs and 5 PT76s.

Let me state that all Israeli OOB info even from the IDF historical section needs to be taken with a grain of salt (Crossroads....this is our tinfoil hat) but the reports do contain many official AA reports and survivors accounts.

So back to the 14th Brigade...The brigade was lead by the 87th Recon Battalion (Brom). I believe this battalion was equipped with M60A1 tanks and M113 APCs.

A few thoughts on the deployment of M60A1s. most reports indicate that prior to the '73 war, Israel had recieved 150+ M60A1s. so where were these tanks depolyed? Here's my take:

-Tuvia Raviv (Commander of the 600th Brigade consisting of the 407th, 409th and 410th battalions part of Sharon's 143rd division) stated in the AA reports that before the war, his brigade was fully equipped with the latest, new Patton tanks...I assume these were M60A1s and the AA reports and Gravonsky support this. The standard TO&E of an Israeli armored brigade was 111 tanks.
-Additional sources state that Brom's Brigade was fully equipped with M60A1s ( as well as the relatively scarce M113s). The 87th Battalions websire confirms this stating that their initial TO&E was 24 M60A1s and 36 M133s. They did suffer some losses prior to the crossing but i'll address this later
-It stands to reason that if M60A1s were being deployed, then the 460th Brigade (the Armour Schoo)l Brigade would have some M60A1s in their training plans. In fact, the evidence shows that Mitzna's 196th Battalion (of the 460th) included the M60A1s. The 196th was an oversize training Battalion ( intially 6 companies, 4 Patton (M48s+ and M60s) and 2 Shot Kal). In the frantic reorganization as war broke out, the 2 Shot kal companies were transferred to another brigade and the 196th recieved 2 more M48+ companies from another battalion in the 460th, making the 196th a pure Patton battalion. The 196th was then split, with half going to Sharon's 143rd dividion as the 196th battalion and the other half going to Adan's 162nd Division as the Lapidot Force. More later on how Mitzna's 196th was morphed into the 79th in the 14th Brigade during the crossing.

Back to to Brom's 87Th Brigade...As they lead the 14th Brigade below is what I think is the best summary of the To&E of the Brigade;
-Command element:
-Battalion HQ: 4 M113 (deputy Battalion CO, OPs Section, Medical Section, Ordance/Mechanic APC. The HQ platoon rides in this APC platoon in the scenario
-Battalion CO (Brom) M60A1...in the game, as the leader cannot "load" on his tank without penalty, I made Brom a foot commander, gave him an M113 to ride in and retained the command tank
-Three Armored/Recon companies (A, B, C respective commanders Avizohar, Bar-Lev, Kahana). Each company has seven M60A1s (1 for the company commander (also given an M113 to ride in) and two platoons of 3 M60a1s each. Each company also has 6 M113 loaded with light recon squads.
-There is a fourth company (D) made up of jeeps. Company commander...I'm working on it.

Ok that's a good start. Next will be my thoughts on the next battalion in line....Mitzna's 79th (196th)......






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